Login | Register
 
Message Board | Latest Posts | Your Recent Posts | Rules

Thread: Men and dwarves marriage?

Is this discussion interesting? Share it on Twitter!

Bottom of Page    Message Board > The Hobbit (Movie) > Men and dwarves marriage?   
A question I've been asking myself lately, in fact. We have read about the mingling of races in ME, namely between Elves and Men but never between Men and Dwarves. Would it be possible for the races of Dwarves and Men to find each other attractive, marry and eventually produce children? I have the feeling that few dwarves would marry outside their race (and few dwarves are known to marry at all), which leads to another question: -Why would a male dwarf find it difficult to be attracted to a woman from the race of Men? Another interesting question could be the following: how do Men regard the Dwarf race? From Thorin's time labouring in the villages of Men I would suppose his memories were not particularly good. Men seem to regard all Dwarves as cruel, greedy and corrupt beings and the Dwarves have Men in low regards, I would say. Most of them, at least. This prejudice would affect any possible relationship between the two races; also I'm betting such a union would be looked down upon. What are your thoughts?
I think it's unlikely but possible. After all dwarves became the eru's children. We've seen "interbreeding" between men, elves, maia, and orcs, so I think it's possible.

Yeah, I can't think of a single instance where it's even suggested a male dwarf was interested in women, or vice versa. We have of course Gimli being enamored with Galadriel, so maybe it's slightly possible there was an absolutely beautiful female that may have sort of resembled an elf. But, nothing comes to mind...

Agreed Balrogs.  I think that Gimli was probably enamored by the Elf Queen Power as well as her beauty.  It was after all Gimli who stated that Galadrial was "an Elf witch of Terrible power, all that look upon her are cast under her spell"  perhaps the old rumors where based on truth.

I certainly cant imagine a mortal Man or Elf coupling with a Dwarfet and or in reverse.  However stranger things have happened,

Is this a question with respect to Jackson's film world, or Tolkien's world?

For example, at the moment I don't recall Gimli referring to Galadriel as an Elf-witch in the books, but the thread in general seems to be about the possibility of Dwarves interbreeding in Tolkien's world... even if raised in a film forum.

Looking too hard into it Galin. It's in respect to neither. Just a question about Middle Earth.

Hopefully Madame tortilla can answer too, since she asked, but in the film forums.

If it's about Middle-earth then to my mind it's about Tolkien's world, and the Gimli 'Elf-witch example' [for example] doesn't support anything if Tolkien's Gimli never said it... nor should any film rumors about Kili and Tauriel [with interbreeding being one of the questions raised], for another possible instance.

"We have read about the mingling of races in ME,"

Look at all the other non-film threads in these film forums too.

Jackson's Middle Earth really does not vary too vehemently from Tolkien's. Yes the plot lines that happen within it changes, but otherwise any changes are very subtle. Nobody even mentioned Tauriel or Kili, completely off topic, which has also been blown out of proportion.

It's a fairly simple question about ME that does not need to be complicated with the film/purist debate. Especially with a new member to our forum. That's all I'm saying. I mean heck, what would you answer differently either way? In neither instance do we have any evidence of dwarf/Man relationships.

So no, I don't think Men have ever married among dwarves. And I don't think they would, Mortal Men are too shallow.

In the books and in the movies.

I wouldn't say it was impossible, however, Men an Elves are very similar structurally and mentally, both preferring access to the outside.  Dwarves, on the other hand, are content to dwell in the roots of a mountain and remain there for long periods of time.  I feel like that would be a huge obstruction to any possible relationship.

"We have read about the mingling of races in ME," Look at all the other non-film threads in these film forums too.

So it's a non-film thread [according to you at least].

And plenty of people do think Jackson's Middle-earth varies greatly from Tolkien's Middle-earth. And yes there are likely other non-film threads in the film forums -- doesn't mean that every thread there is wholly about the books however.

It's a fairly simple question about ME that does not need to be complicated with the film/purist debate. Especially with a new member to our forum.

Well I asked a fairly simple question, based on two factors [including Brego quoting from the films] that at least seemed to speak to this thread as possibly being a film thread [despite the word 'read' that I noted as well]. Is the thread about Jackson's world or Tolkien's, was all I asked.

In any case here you add your opinion about the films versus the books [referring to your: 'Jackson's Middle Earth really does not vary too vehemently from Tolkien's. Yes the plot lines that happen within it changes, but otherwise any changes are very subtle'] -- and then suggest that others shouldn't complicate the thread with any debate in this area.

I'm sorry but to me it seems fair enough for anyone to now respond to your statements here.

Lol. Way over thinking this man. Big time.

So you're saying because I wrote Jackson's Middle Earth to help you understand I was comparing the two separate mediums, film and book, to explain my point to you, I'm being hypocritical? Grasping at straws here. I'm not that ignorant to Tolkien, the differences are few, if not just decisions of debates still going among Tolkienites, and overall the "rules" of the world are the same, even with comparisons to UT, BoLTpt I and II and concepts from War of the Ring. Just because you disagree with something that has no answer doesn't mean it's wrong, wrong being what the film showed next to the scattered documents left behind by Tolkien.

Not sure where I "suggested" others not to discuss film/book differences either.

I just don't understand why you even need such clarification. Just say, "Well in *insert random book from HOME* it says..." Why do you suggest others must ask or answer a question that pertains only to one medium? Most people come here to know more about the books anyways...

But mostly I just don't want to hijack this good question thread with a worn out debate that's already all over these film forums. So if you want to continue this discussion, make or bump a thread about it. And to everyone else, please don't let all of this discourage your responses or interest to the OP. Anything is welcome!

I think Galin is aiming his purist arrow at me...

Galin

Both Dwarves and The Men of Gondor obviously considered Galadrial to be extremely powerful, perilous and perhaps even dangerous and yes Galin I quoted the film.  I like the juxtaposition of Gilmi's negativity in entering the Golden Wood to Boromir's, and their very different opinions upon leaving.  I think PJ's version is in keeping with the Books.

However thanks for the pickup...

Balrogs, initially you said 'Middle-earth' -- implying what you then stated in your next post about the film world ['Jackson's Middle-earth'] versus Tolkien's world -- and so I felt it was fair to reply to these opinions.

Even as part of an explanation it's still your opinion about film compared to book. You made a comparison, and I did not say that you were wrong in an objective sense. I disagreed rather.

Not sure where I "suggested" others not to discuss film/book differences either.

Here's where you 'suggest' it in my opinion, as far as this thread is concerned, as you wrote: 'It's a fairly simple question about ME that does not need to be complicated with the film/purist debate. Especially with a new member to our forum. That's all I'm saying.'

I just don't understand why you even need such clarification. Just say, "Well in *insert random book from HOME* it says..." Why do you suggest others must ask or answer a question that pertains only to one medium? Most people come here to know more about the books anyways...

At just about every Tolkien site I post at there are separate forums for films and books -- or threads are noted as 'book' or 'film' for clarity. And I asked because my answer would be different depending on the context [if deciding to participate at all].

All you, or anyone, needed to say was that it was a book or a film thread.

 

And as for Brego's 'purist arrow' -- while I don't know about 'arrow' itself, if I recall correctly, in any event we have yet to define purist to see if I really am one.

Defining 'purist' might be an interesting thread too Smile Smilie

And...

Brego wrote: '(...) I think PJ's version is in keeping with the Books.'

... that's another opinion about book versus film [well obviously, but only noted in the context of Balrogs seemingly wanting to keep a film versus book debate for another thread].

You truly are a major pain Galin.  I still think you are C.T in disguise....

Don't feed the troll Brego. Just close your eyes and hope it goes away.

Brego and Balrogs, you are free, of course, to resort to these type of responses [at least from my perspective], but anyway, as so far we seem to agree we have a book thread here...

We have read about the mingling of races in ME, namely between Elves and Men but never between Men and Dwarves.

That's true Madame tortilla, and not that you said otherwise, but in Tolkien's world the mingling of even Men and Elves is noted as a rare event [Tolkien refers to this in at least one of his letters].

Interestingly [from an external perspective] I'm not wholly sure that Tolkien's original concept, or early concept of Dwarves maybe, had them 'breeding' at all, and it seems that he only gradually came to the conclusions that we are used to now from the 1977 Silmarillion and Appendix A.

Would it be possible for the races of Dwarves and Men to find each other attractive, marry and eventually produce children?

Hmm, although the matter of attractiveness is a subjective one, in the 1977 Silmarillion we read:

'And thus it was that Caranthir's people came upon the Dwarves, who after the onslaught of Morgoth and the coming of the Noldor had ceased traffic in Beleriand. But though either people loved skill and were eager to learn, no great love was there between them; for the Dwarves were secret and quick to resentment, and Caranthir was haughty and scarce concealed his scorn for the unloveliness of the Naugrim,...'

That said, I have heard the opinion before that this is a specifically Elvish view, or arguably might be. In any case I don't recall [at the moment] the same being said of Men in general, by Elves or anyone; and of course we find that at least some Men [as in the race] looked enough like Elves.

And one can find something beautiful [Gimli appears to find Galadriel beautiful in any event], without thinking in terms of marriage, of course.

In Of Dwarves And Men Tolkien actually wrote a section concerning the relationship of the Longbeards and Men, even noting there that while the Dwarves were glad to make alliance with Men [at the point in history concerned in the essay], yet the Dwarves multiplied slowly, while Men in prosperity and peace multiplied more swiftly than Elves [author's note 27].

In other words, he notes a close relationship of certain peoples here in general, but never goes into intermarriage however. I realize that's more 'lack of statement', yes, but one would also think it notable to mention if it happened. How are Dwarf-women described physically?

In Appendix A it is generally noted that Men [mortal Men being included in 'other peoples' I would say] cannot tell Dwarf-women from Dwarf-men, as the Dwarf-women were too alike to their men in voice and appearance from the perspective of others [and even in dress if they should be seen outside their halls].

Well obviously men can find other men attractive, all I'm saying is that for 'us mortals' we have that much to go on [as in this description I mean] when we consider appearance -- again subjective as 'attractiveness' is, in any case.

Also, from The Later Quenta Silmarillion [compare to Appendix A] Tolkien noted that Dwarf-women were few, go not to war '... and seldom save at direst need issue from their deep bowers and halls.'

I'm not sure Dwarf-women were usually seen by anyone other than Dwarf-men Wink Smilie

And as others have said, we have no real examples [that I recall at the moment anyway] to support a notion of Dwarves and Men mingling in this way. 

Now see that wasn't so hard, was it?

And I had a different answer [potentially] in mind if this was a film thread... why I asked a simple question for clarity.

Cave or Mountain I wander 'Rogs?

Considering the section of Madame tortilla's post that deals with relationships, I'll note that when Thror brought back the Arkenstone to the Great Hall of Thrain...

'... he and his folk prospered and became rich, and they had the friendship of all Men that dwelt near.'

The Northmen became strong and the Dwarves lived in plenty, until the dragons/Smaug, and Dale was ruined and deserted. Thror and Thrain went south, with Thorin, into long and homeless wandering, but it turns out Thror was seemingly dwelling in Dunland about the time when he said: 'But I am tired of poverty and the scorn of Men.'

In The Hobbit Thorin even refers to his Grandfather being...

'... treated with great reverence by the mortal men, who lived in the south, and were gradually spreading up the running river...'

... and it's said that mortal fathers would beg the Dwarves to take their sons as apprentices, and pay handsomely. Of later days Thorin states here that after the Dragon they went away and had to earn their living as best they could up and down the lands, often enough 'sinking as low as blacksmith-work, or even coalmining.'

So even within this relatively brief time period [considering the Three Ages] we have both friendship and prosperity in the North, and poverty and the scorn of Men [of Dunland perhaps].

 

That said, this is but a small snapshot of some Dwarves and Men at a given period. According to Of Dwarves And Men we have the Firebeards and the Broadbeams in the North of the Ered Lindon, and the Longbeards of Mount Gundabad. The other two places were Eastward, from whence we get the Ironfists and Stiffbeards, and the place of awakening for the Blacklocks and Stonefoots.

Tolkien begins the section on relations between the Longbeards and Men by very generally noting that in far distant days the Dwarves were secretive and had few dealings with the Elves, but in the First Age it's also noted that dealings between Men and the Longbeards must have begun in Eriador and Rhovanion.

'For the Longbeards, though the proudest of the seven kindreds, were also the wisest and the most farseeing. Men held them in awe and were eager to learn from them; and the Longbeards were very willing to use Men for their own purposes.'

Thus there grew an economy from which both peoples could prosper, but Tolkien notes that this system developed slowly, and it was long before the Longbeards felt any need to learn the language of their neighbours, still less to adopt names by which they could be known individually to 'outsiders'.

The Longbeard Dwarves spread southward and made their chief mansion and stronghold at 'Moria', and also Eastward to the Iron hills, and when Morgoth fell these Dwarves were glad to have had the alliance with Men, when many orcs migrated east out of Beleriand. The Men with whom they were associated were for the most part akin to the people of the House of Hador -- who first regarded the Dwarves 'askance', fearing that they were under the Shadow...

'... for they had met some far to the East who were of evil mind' [author's note] [another author's note] 'Alas, it seems probable that (as Men did later) the Dwarves of the far eastern mansions (and some of the nearer ones?) came under the Shadow of Morgoth and turned to evil.'

But these 'Hadorians' were also glad of the alliance, and...

'In these ways the Alliance of Dwarves and Men in the North came early in the Second Age to command great strength (...) and there grew up in that region between Dwarves and Men respect and esteem, and sometimes warm friendship.'

Tolkien then notes that when Sauron invaded Eriador and destroyed Eregion, this marked the end of the Alliance of the Longbeards with Men of the North [as an aside, in the 1977 Silmarillion I found a passage that described some of the Swarthy Men with: '... and some had greater liking for the Dwarves of the mountains than for the Elves.']

Not that this post pretends to be all inclusive concerning Dwarvish and Mannish history, but anyway it seems that there are enough Dwarves that we don't know much about, including some evil-minded types -- which I suppose, in itself anyway, doesn't necessarily preclude possible friendship, at least at times, with some Eastern Men.

Wedding, Copulating and attraction are all very different things. I expect and suspect that as Tolkien explains that Dwarves, even though are indeed Illuvatar's adopted children, are not the product of Illuvatara's Music and therefore probably could not procreate. Gay couples can't procreate, and yet are Illuvatar's children and are capable of love. So I expect that a Dwarf and a Man and or an Elf could indeed fall in love.

I think Tolkien's Dwarves could and did procreate in the usual way:

'It is because of the fewness of women among them that the kind of the Dwarves increases slowly, and is in peril when they have no secure dwellings. For Dwarves take only one wife or husband each in their lives...'

And [also from Appendix A] the fact that Dwarf-women look so alike to Dwarf-men has given rise to the foolish opinion among Men that there are no Dwarf-women, and that the Dwarves thus 'grow out of stone'.

So the foolish opinion is that Dwarves grow out of stone, rather than reproducing in the manner one would naturally think once the existence of Dwarf-women is confirmed -- as it is here. Also, the Dwarves have sons and daughters, and lines of descent.

'They had very few woman-folk. Dis Thrain's daughter was there. She was the mother of Fili and Kili, who were born in the Ered Luin. Thorin had no wife.'

Appendix A, footnote

But if these things are not enough, in the 1950s Tolkien notes [see The War of the Jewels, section on Dwarves and Men in the Quenta Silmarillion] that the Seven Fathers were reincarnated in their own kin 'after the manner of the Elves'  -- and the manner of the Elves at this time is reincarnation by being reborn as a baby [Elves reproducing in the usual way of course].

Granted Tolkien would later change the idea of reincarnation among the Elves, and interestingly later we see him tinkering with the reincarnation of the Dwarves as well  -- but, as easily illustrated by the Elves -- the reason for the revision had nothing to do with Elves simply having children in general.

A main reason for this change was that Tolkien believed that a given hroa [roughly 'body'] and a fea [roughly 'spirit'] should have a specific and unique relationship with each other in one being -- but if this is so, to be reborn as a child to new parents would mean the same fea now coupled with a different hroa. Ultimately this was not acceptable to Tolkien.

It might be that in the very very early conception [before The Hobbit was written] Tolkien's Dwarves had no children, or at least 'new Dwarves' did not appear due to the usual method. The Book of Lost Tales describes:

'Old are they, and never comes a child among them, nor do they laugh.'

At this very early stage the Dwarves in general were fairly evil and had associations with the Orcs. It's interesting that Mim the Dwarf is called 'the fatherless' here [in Turambar And The Foaloke], although admittedly that in itself might imply that other Dwarves did have fathers in some sense.

 

In any case that's notably early stuff, and again we know that in the 1950s JRRT imagined the Dwarven method of reincarnation as reincarnation through rebirth, thus births. 

I believe, dear Galin, that this thread is about whether or not Human Mortals could couple with Dwarves. Not regarding the reproduction of Dwarves. There is a difference.

So when you posted generally that Dwarves 'probably could not procreate' you meant with Men? Ok, but I thought maybe you were also injecting what you stated in another thread about Dwarves...

Brego elsewhere wrote: Indeed, however we are still no closer to knowing if Dwarven women actually gestate and deliver a baby or if there was another method, designed by Aule, which perhaps we mortals have no understanding of. (...)

I would find it very charming, however Lee Lee and Galin, if the Dwarves indeed married, Loved there partner, then after some time decided to have a child and perhaps one day awoke to find a baby Dwarfling in the nursery, perhaps delivered by some form of loving power from elemental sources.

from thread: 'Thorin's Movie Company'

So given this, you might have meant that maybe Dwarves, being only 'adopted' by Iluvatar, can't even have babies themselves ['probably could not procreate' meaning in the usual way of course], and so that's why they could not procreate with Men.

And I realize you were only bringing this all up as possibility before, in any case, although your position then [not mine] was that we will never know if the Dwarves had children in the usual way.

I'm pretty sure that the thread is already assumed that dwarves can reproduce in the same way as elves, men and orcs. So the discussion must be whether dwarves can interbreed with men.

And yet anyone can inject the idea in this thread that maybe Dwarves 'probably could not procreate' in general [in the usual way], as a reason for why Dwarves cannot breed with Men, which is what I thought Brego was doing [and why I thought so is explained above], and so I responded to that.

Brego then clarified that he didn't mean that here.

mmm  I said I would find it charming and I also said that I thought that as Aule may not have known Eru's chosen method of procreation, he may have instilled within the Dwarves a different method...

Perhaps Galin if you are confused and are therefore confusing other readers here, you should stop copying slabs of other peoples posts from old threads and trying to use them as some kind of argument.

mmm I said I would find it charming and I also said that I thought that as Aule may not have known Eru's chosen method of procreation, he may have instilled within the Dwarves a different method...

Which is not procreation in the usual way, as I said -- while here you posted Dwarves 'probably could not procreate'.

Perhaps Galin if you are confused and are therefore confusing other readers here, you should stop copying slabs of other peoples posts from old threads and trying to use them as some kind of argument.

I'm not confused Brego. And citing your earlier idea here simply better explains my response to your more recent post.

Not at all Galin. You are the one querying and questioning members posts of which you either don't understand and ir disagree with. So I have to suspect you are either confused or simply argumentative. You seem to relish argument and or disagreement. You should simply understand that as readers, we all imagine and conceptualise Tolkien in many different ways, and that simply copying and pasting slabs of info can't change our view on ME canon.

Brego wrote: Not at all Galin. You are the one querying and questioning members posts of which you either don't understand and ir disagree with.

I made what I consider a reasonable enough connection considering your statement that Dwarves 'probably could not procreate' with your earlier suggestion that maybe they can't have children [procreate] in the usual way.

You basically responded that you didn't mean that here, and I accepted this.

So I have to suspect you are either confused or simply argumentative. You seem to relish argument and or disagreement.

I enjoy discussing Tolkien and would rather we get back to Dwarves or whatever. And in any case I haven't been posting all by myself here.

 

You should simply understand that as readers, we all imagine and conceptualise Tolkien in many different ways, and that simply copying and pasting slabs of info can't change our view on ME canon.

If you've ever disagreed with anyone about Tolkien or Middle-earth based on something from the books, would that somehow mean that you don't 'understand' that people have different perspectives?

I understand that people disagree and agree about Tolkien every day on the web, on a number of Tolkien chat sites, and that some even back up their points of view with 'slabs' of Tolkien written text. Perfectly fine, and not unexpected really.

You don't have to read any of the Tolkien citations I post Brego, nor any post of mine of course, but especially if you direct your comments specifically to me, or comment about me, then yes, you just might get a response.

So, assuming Dwarves and Men CAN reproduce, it is doubtful that they would feel an ounce of attraction for the other race. In PJ's extended edition of The Hobbit we have a scene in particular showing Kili's first sign of attraction for someone who is not a dwarf, though I don't know how canon-ish we can consider that particular scene to be. Maybe it is possible, but it would be one in a million, so to speak. Dwarves are very much suspicious of outsiders and from the descriptions we have regarding Thorin's time in exile, it would seem that there is some tension between the two races.

Well Gimli fell in love with the First Lady  of the Elves and so it is possible for one to fall in love with a human, but you have to consider the leaving an entire way of life and clan and I don't think so, for preservation of all that entailed Man and Elves and Dwarves and the precarious way of life , I do not know how the dwarves and Men would fare. Either would have to be prepared to leave forever on the Middle Earth this and that would involve history and culture and thought :I think it more likely to be forever friends and share with each other but maintain that separateness that makes them unique

When Aule created the dwarves he made them as close as possible to the image of the children of Illuvatar , so it is reasonable to believe that they can reproduce with the other races that are considered " children of Illuvatar" , even with orcs that are perverted elves and men.

The other characteristic of dwarves is that they are very stubborn and rough, they were made by Aule to resist the war with Melkor and his beasts. So they are not easy to trust other races, marriage with an outsider would be taboo for them. Men and elves can relate emotionally, but the dwarves are of a different kind.

So, I believe that they can mate with other races, but it is highly unlikely they will ever do that, they are very xenophobic and even racist .

Well as Ive just witnessed in the special edition Fili perves on an Elf thinking that he is a she....  The other Dwarves laugh at his. Hilarious but not canon I know.

I think PJ was showing that the differences in sexes between Elves and Dwarves can be blurred sometimes...