Thread: the hobbit 3
Just curious but where did you read this?
If it is true, then all I can say is it wouldn't surprise me one bit. In fact I'd be more surprised if Smaug was defeated in ANY WAY similar to how it happened in the book.
Bain would become a cooked wild caught shrimp if he battled smaug. it would be impossible for him to do so, so maybe he throws a piece of dirt from the dirtiest city in Middle Earth, so yes, i do not care if Bain dies, except that he is king after Bard.
I can definitely see where they would have him fighting, especially if he is put in a position where he is required to defend his sisters and/or father. Lets say Bard is injured in the fight and his son takes up his place until Bard regains consciousness ::insert cliche movie suspense followed by relief here.::
While I can defiantly see how they would do this, I can't figure out why. They could obviously have Bard fail (unconscious or incapacitated etc), then Bain pick up where he left off. Why would they do this? Do they want to add suspense by making Bard fail? Do they want to show the inner turmoil but resolve to do what's necessary in Bain?
Secondly, where did you get this info Glorfindel? "Some sources on the internet" is not exactly trustworthy until verified.
I would expect that most of Laketown would be either fighting Smaug or at least fleeing or putting out fires (like in the book)...
I'm imagining that Bard will fight his way out of his cell at the last minute to save the day with his hidden "Black Arrow" and take the final shot on the double dragon crossbow thing.....
I'm never really sure about what PJ is going to do with the plot, so I watch with as open a mind as possible. Maybe Bain fights off the dragon till he rescues Bard but how he does that with ordinary weaponry is beyond me. Most of Lake Town would be fleeing or dying trying to battle back.
I've forgotten, how old is Bain in the book?
No. Glorfindel sounds more like a wine from California. Zinfandel.
I have very low expectations for the third hobbit movie. I assume Smaug's epic appearance will make up for the black arrow/windlance/scales on his belly (blatantly disregarding the many tales of Turambar). However, it will most certainly not make up for any Bain vs Smaug nonsense. Near the end it looked as though Bolg was to fight Bilbo, why not let Bilbo do his thing in the second movie with Smaug and let the Dwarves be the heroes of the third movie? In any case, this is unpardonable, as is the "we need an antagonist for all three movies so let's make this 'Azog' fellow have far too much screen time." Most irritating of all is the continuation of the Gandalf subplot, with Gandalf being once again made to look like a weak old man. It reminds me of the scene from the extended RotK, where the witch king breaks Gandalf's staff.
There are a few things that could save the third movie in my opinion. Cate as Galadriel was a really good idea, and some more amazing acting from her might save the Gandalf subplot. Smaug as I already mentioned can continue to take up 100% of the CGI budget and can continue to be incredibly awesome. Then, of course, there is Beorn. I always wanted to see a gigantic invincible bear warrior destroy hordes upon hordes of goblins as though they were but straw before a hurricane. I really, really hope that they step up the Beorn in the next movie, and make him a bit bigger in his bear form. Perhaps the most important of all (for me) is the eagles. I thought the entrance in RotK was ok, but could have been better. I certainly preferred how Tolkien did it, once again using the "Oh no a big rock...hey look! Eagles!" I hope that is the entrance used in the Hobbit.
All in all, I think that the third movie will be bad. There is still potential for it to make up for a few things but overall, based on the trailer, it looks like it'll be bad.
I don't know what to think about movie trailers, or television series trailers at general, 'cause in all fairness, they sometimes show too much. And sometimes trailers give an impression, that the movie would be ultimately kick-ass, while this may not even be true, for a trailer always strives to consist of the better moments of the movie as a whole. That, of course, is ultimately up to YOU, whether the movie itself holds much more than just the best moments shown on some trailer.
I think that best way is just go and watch the movie, without watching any trailers about it beforehand.
That's what I want to do with The Hobbit: The Battle of Five Armies too. I watched a little glimpse of the trailer, but I soon stopped and won't visit it for a second time.
I liked of the previous movies, so I will definitely enjoy of this one too.
And I actually used to spoil myself with a lot of details in the past, but I guess I'm more into getting the full experience out of certain things these days.
Just another Oerath-ish opinion. Cheers!
Agreed about the Gandalf the White V Witch King scene in TROTK. Would have been so powerful if as in the book the Witch King fled after a power duel with Gandalf, his flame was extinguished, and fled as the Horns of Rohan blew in the distance.
Gandalf the Grey, in the TDOS, however would have been better matched against Sauron in weakened form. In the books it states that Sauron "fled from him". However in the film I think PJ supposes that Gandalf may have been weakened somewhat by breaking Sauron's invisibility spell and tackling Azog.... It does make for much more tension than Gandalf simply walking in and Sauron flying away. And the White Council entering Dol Guldur will have a double meaning. One to ascertain that the Dark Force of the Necromancer is indeed Sauron and two to rescue Gandalf.
I for one can understand why PJ has streamlined and compressed what takes place over a number of years in the books into a neater linear line in the films. Its much easier to follow for the masses.
Cant wait for The White Council scene in TBOFA.......
Wow, I like the discussion on the trailer! Totally awesome ;-)
I for one (sorry Oerath) just HAVE to see the trailer, although I do think if you watch it you're kind of torturing yourself knowing that: #1 - you're not going to see the movie until the end of the year, if you go to theaters; #2 - some of the awesome fighting clips aren't going to be in the movie (but I hope they will all be in this one); and #3 - WHY isn't it like the book? Of course, PJ did an excellent job in my opinion managing to get it all together and making it seem realistic;-)
I could also not find the meaning of the Wargs-chasing-the-carriage-on-the-frozen-river scene. Maybe it's where the dwarves that stayed behind in the town leave to go the the mountain (didn't happen in the book, but it had to in the movie with the Tauriel/Kili thing).
And I found it (hm, I don't know. Amusing? Ironic?) that they put Pippin's song from RoTK in the trailer. It seemed like it went well with it. Although I am wondering how Pippin managed to sing it if he basically wasn't born yet ;-D
And definitely excited at the prospect of more elves kicking butt. Thranduil seemed kind of like a jerk in the 2nd movie (and no one said why! You just think, 'Hm, maybe he just hates dwarves for some reason' but that's not why; the book explains it). So he seems more heroic in the 3rd movie because he goes to help out. Plus (as someone has mentioned and you know who you are;-) a female elf in the movie is pretty awesome too. Adds some flavor to it, because you never see Galadriel or Arwen flying around, doing flips, and hacking Orcs heads off. Makes us elf fans happy :-) Namarie,
There's two things I always wished appeared somehow in the movies.
1) Galadriel annihilating some orcs just by looking at them (or in another but equally awesome way)
2) Glorfindel crushing the Nazgul
Until now, both of those things have been nothing more than a wish.
By the way, Amras, you said:
Then we see in the trailer Bard and some Esgaroth scum apparently charging at some orcs. Like there would be any competition, the orcs would butcher the peasants...
...except that those same peasants were on the winning side at the battle of five armies, you certainly don't think they just died a lot and watched the dwarves slaughter thousands of orcs, do you?
Well, anyway, I just want to see more Galadriel in the third movie, that's all.
Yes, they are peasants in the movie, but in the book, they are fisherfolk. That means that in the book they had some minimal training in bows, making them efficient archers. Also Galadriel could not kill orcs by looking at them, that is ridiculous, but she could have the " white breath", the Nazgul effect, which makes your foes wither with fear, rendering them useless. Glorfindel would of been amazing to see in the films scaring and fighting the nazgul away from Frodo. So yes, this is a small post, so i will limit the information.
Why does being a fisher equal training with bows? Secondly, (in the book) they were not only archers but were also decent spearmen, and I don't think they were shooting fish with arrows or spear fishing. Thirdly, in the movies they are fishermen, since the giant boats full of fish are an everyday sight and they are situated on a lake.
As for Galadriel, I certainly hope she never looks at me with intent to kill.
I reckon that out of all three TBOFA will be most canon. Other than Azog attending there is really great scope for PJ to flesh out the original story without deviating from the narritive.
Re Galadriel. Remember that the dark Orcs and fell beasts were scared of the Noldor because of the light of there eyes. Its in light, the original light from the Two Trees of Valinor, which Galadriel alone in Middle Earth had seen with her own eyes along with the wisdom of Melian which gives her her strength.... How PJ uses this power is yet to be seen. Cant wait. What PJ shouldn't do is have Galadriel use the power of her Ring of power. Sauron does not know who bares this ring and it would be a terrible mistake for her to reveal it.
Its in light, the original light from the Two Trees of Valinor, which Galadriel alone in Middle Earth had seen with her own eyes...
Does Tolkien say so? If so can you please refresh my memory regarding the source.
There were other Exiled Noldor, at least, in Middle-earth in the Third Age of course [Gildor and so on], although Galadriel is noted as the last of the leaders of the rebel Noldor.
Hi Galin. Well there (as you well know) are no other named Elves in TLOTR or TH books who are remnants of the Valinor born Noldor other than perhaps Glorfindel, who in the books may have been part of the White Council as well as a meet up Frodo and co on there way to Rivendel. I doubt however that he will make an appearance in the last Hobbit film. Perhaps there were others who joined with Galadriel in Loth Lorien or elsewhere. However if there were any mighty and very old Elves left, Tolkien would have mentioned them.
Re the light. There are many examples of Men, Dwarves and Orcs being frightened by the light of Valinor presented in the eyes of the Eldar.
Re Gildor. Yes he is a member of the Noldor, however whether he was born in Valinor, Middle Earth or was simply very young when his house relocated to Middle Earth I don't know.
Yes Amras, I think you may be correct regarding Tauriel's demise.... I think they'll be a show down with Kili and Fili v that Bastard Azog and Turiel will attempt to protect them.... They'll be tears and sadness......
And yes we already saw some bats in AUEJ and I expect that a huge fflock will be sent from DolGuldur before the Whit Council show down.....
Hi Galin. Well there (as you well know) are no other named Elves in TLOTR or TH books who are remnants of the Valinor born Noldor other than perhaps Glorfindel, who in the books may have been part of the White Council as well as a meet up Frodo and co on there way to Rivendel. I doubt however that he will make an appearance in the last Hobbit film.
Yes Glorfindel, for example, was said to have reluctantly joined the Rebellion due, in part, to kinship with Turgon.
However if there were any mighty and very old Elves left, Tolkien would have mentioned them.
Tolkien does refer to mighty Elves from West Over Sea, and thus old enough for our purposes here, since it concerns the light of the Two Trees. Whether or not they are named doesn't matter, given the claim of Galadriel being alone and so on.
'And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, Lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds...' JRRT, Many Meetings
And while Galadriel was great among the Noldor, Tolkien describes the Noldor in general: 'In that time [the fading years of the Third Age] the Noldor walked still in the hither Lands, mightiest and fairest of the children of the world...' Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age
Re Gildor. Yes he is a member of the Noldor, however whether he was born in Valinor, Middle Earth or was simply very young when his house relocated to Middle Earth I don't know.
Well, Gildor explains that his folk [those met by Frodo] are Exiles, tarrying ere they 'return' Over Sea, and the song they sing includes the line: 'We still remember, we who dwell in this far land beneath the trees, thy starlight on the Western Seas.'
Gildor and company are High Elves, as are most of the Elves of Rivendell. Tolkien explained in various sources:
'The Elves of Aman, and all Elves who ever dwelt in Aman, were called the High Elves (Tareldar)' [Morgoth's Ring, used for the Silmarillion index by Christopher Tolkien]. 'But it was impossible for one of the High Elves to overcome the yearning for the Sea, and the longing to pass over it again to the land of their former bliss.' [The Road Goes Ever On] 'The High Elves met in this book are Exiles, returned back over Sea to Middle-earth, after events which are the main matter of the Silmarillion (...). Those who lingered were those who were enamoured of Middle-earth and yet desired the unchanging beauty of the Land of the Valar.' [JRRT, letter 144]
And we are talking about the Calaquendi specifically, or the:
"Elves of the Light': 'Those Elves who lived or had lived in Aman (The High Elves)...' Silmarillion Index
The eyes of the returning Exiles impressed the Sindar so much that the Sindar called them 'Flame-eyed'.
Just to add, regarding the 'High Elves' part of the argument at least [I realize no one has said otherwise], but it appears that at least a couple of times Tolkien used High Elves to include the Sindar, when comparing the West-elves to other Elves of Middle-earth.
In any case Gildor and Company are High Elves in the sense defined by Tolkien above, being Noldorin Exiles, and in RGEO the sense is High Elves as in Exiled Noldor, where it is said that 'most' of the Elves of Imladris were High Elves. I add this only as I myself have noted this distinction elsewhere... and possibly at Planet Tolkien too.
Well there you go. Thanks Galin. Not sure what else to say....
Remember that the dark Orcs and fell beasts were scared of the Noldor because of the light of there eyes
Regardless of the fact that Galadriel was not the only elf left in middle earth to have seen the two trees by the third age, she was still flame eyed, and I'd defiantly like to see her vs Sauron. Either that, or a bunch of orcs garrisoned at Dul Guldur line up in an impressive shield wall, and then Galadriel just laughs and walks right by them, not a single one even able to do anything but cower before her glorious might.
I hope you are talking about the archers which appear around 1:30 in the teaser trailer. I don't think the men would be so well armored, in particular the articulated spaulders and the beautifully decorated helmets. Additionally, they all have what looks like long, black hair. There was a bit of a discussion about the possible significance of hair color here https://www.planet-tolkien.com/board/14/2963/0/hair-colour. In any case, I'm not sure the men of lake town would all have long hair, and its much easier for me to imagine a bunch of elves with the same hair than a bunch of humans.
From the Hobbit, chapter 17
On the Southern spur, in its lower slopes and in the rocks at its feet, the Elves were set; on the Eastern spur were men and dwarves. But Bard and some of the nimblest of men and elves climbed to the height of the Eastern shoulder to gain a view to the North.
So if it were humans, they would be shooting from the eastern spur of the mountain, not what appears to be a level, grassy plain. The elves, on the other hand, were also in the rocks at the feet of the southern spur, which might contain such a lever, grassy plain for a brief stretch. Of course, I don't exactly expect PJ to follow what is written in the book because why would he when he can not and make idiot fans who compare just about every frame of the trailer to the corresponding text angry? Finally, they are arranged in a remarkably ordered fashion for untrained humans, while I would assume that the elves, with all their spare time and war, all have some sort of training.
However, the soldiers are all drab looking and don't look anything like the elves we see around 55 seconds. Those elves might be special elite soldiers who are there only to impress Bard. This, however, could confuse the average moviegoer, who is conventionally assumed to be easily confused.
In conclusion, I think that within the movie soldiers like those should be elves, but they are humans. Or at least, PJ wants us to think they are humans. Also, within the context of the book, soldiers that looked like that and were in such a location with such a formation would more than likely be elves.
Totally agree Curufinwe. As Galadriel was the most powerful Elf left in Middle Earth I'm sure we will be in for some inspired visuals. As Galin confirmed although not the only Noldo left in Middle Earth, she certainly was the only one left of the leaders of the Noldor exiles.
Just to note it, in a late text Tolkien described Glorfindel, after his death, with the following...
He then became again a living incarnate person, but was permitted to dwell in the Blessed Realm; for he had regained the primitive innocence and grace of the Eldar. For long years he remained in Valinor, in reuinion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar.
To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen by himself was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice.
JRRT, Last Writings, Glorfindel II
Actually, in a very late, unfinished text Tolkien appears to have desired to remove Galadriel from the Rebellion! Despite that he had already published that she was banned from the West for her role as a leader of the Rebellion!
Well I guess we were all wrong and right at the same time.
Taurial survived albeit heart broken and bereft.
Thranduil opens up that he is cold because of his long lost love of his Wife and Legolas's Mother.
I felt the sadness of PJ's version of the Hobbit. I think he gave us an emotional version of an extended more adult version of The Hobbit.
I wish that Tolkien had had the time to complete his revision of The Hobbit. I guess PJ created what he imagined JRRT would have imagined in a fully fleshed out prequel to The Lord of The Rings.
There are many things that I think PJ got wrong, and many thing right. But you know I really appreciate the effort put into expanding this rather huge small story.....
Yes hate the silly stuff, Wereworms, gigantic Troll, bats etc. But I'm still glad that I got to
see and experienced Middle Earth again on the big screen....
BTW, I still cry when I hear Howard Shore's feast of Starlight........
If anyone would like to read the actual aborted revision to The Hobbit you can find it in JD Rateliff's book The History of The Hobbit. The text is called the '1960 Hobbit'.
We don't have to imagine how this began, at least, as we can read it and see just what Tolkien was doing, and how he was trying to solve certain discrepancies with The Lord of the Rings, problems that still existed in The Hobbit after the 1951 second edition (already revised by JRRT).
And while we don't know exactly why JRRT abandoned this revision, it's not necessarily because he didn't have enough time. The theory so far (see JDR's History of The Hobbit) is that Tolkien seems to have agreed with the advice of an unknown reader.
In any case, this revision was abandoned by Tolkien.
And JRRT later revised The Hobbit for the Third Edition, in the 1960s, due to the Ace Books controversy.
Yes Glofindal.,I,was expecting to see an extended replication of what we saw in the Prologue of TFOTR. But was please to find that PJ had used the two stories as told by Bilbo.
The movies were truly horrible and disappointing. I can't really figure out why so many unecessary items were added, and a trilogy is just well...horrible!
Thorin, you should check out page two of the P.J's Films &Where... thread, near the bottom of the page. I posted a link and description of a fan edit made from The Hobbit trilogy. It basically cuts out almost all of the added stuff and is pretty much exactly what the movies should've been initially....imo
I get you Thorin, but wouldn't go as far as terrible. So many great things, so many poor things. Should have been two films. Loved a lot of it, disliked bits of it....