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Thread: What happened with Beleriand?

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Aulr began this thread with the following post

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I mean I know after the War of Wrath Beleriand was destroyed or re-shaped. But I can´t figure it out. My friend thinks that Middle-Earth is former Beleriand. But my opinion is that Middle-Earth already existed when Beleriand existed. Why I say that is because they say that the dwarves lived in Belegost and in other places(it also mentions that Durin had built Khazad-Dum and lived there) and that there was great friendship with the dark elf Eöl and the dwarves..... But my friend doesn´t agree.... I also saythis because of a little island north of Angmar. I think that this might be Balars island(don´t know what the name is in english but in swedish it is Balars ö,which means roughly Balar´s Island,so I don´t know really) Can someone please help me?


Virumor replied

Beleriand was just a part of Middle-Earth until it was destroyed after the War of Wrath : it sunk underneath the Sea; the only part of Beleriand that remained after First Age was Lindon i believe (part of Ossiriand) and the Blue Mountains.

Are you sure? because the island north of Angmar sure resembles Balars Island!
Hmmm.....after closer inspecting of the map of Beleriand and Middle-Earth it does make sense....but wouldn´t Ered Luin(Beleriand) be if then Misty Mountains? Because Khazad-Dum and Belegost I mean.....
I'm not sure what u mean... Khazad-Dum and Belegost aren't the same and Ered Luin and Misty Mountains aren't the same either.

I think that the Isle of Balar also remained abose sea level after Beleriand sank but i'm not sure. Also, the Isle of Balar lays south of Angmar i think (i should check)
The Ered Luin on the East side of Beleriand is the same Ered Luin mountain range on the west side of Middle Earth, and so Beleriand was the land that lay to the western side of Middle earth if you crossed the mountains.

Virumor is correct in saying that Lindon is what is left of Ossiriand. Nogrod and Belegost were destroyed at this time, most likely when the Ered Luin was split in two by the Gulf of Lhun.
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Are you sure? because the island north of Angmar sure resembles Balars Island!
You've lost me with this one Aule. Angmar, home of the Witch-king is located at the northern end of the Misty Mountains. It is hundreds of miles from any sea, and so nowhere near any islands.

If you look on your maps of Middle Earth, however, you will see a small island just off the coast of Lindon in the north, called Himling. This is the top of the Himring Hill defended by Maedhos before the sinking of Beleriand.
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I think that the Isle of Balar also remained abose sea level after Beleriand sank but i'm not sure. Also, the Isle of Balar lays south of Angmar i think (i should check
The Isle of Balar lay South of Arvernien in Beleriand, hundreds of miles from Angmar. I cannot find anything about its fate, but I assume it sank with the rest of Beleriand.
Compare the shape of the Blue Mountains (Ered Luin) on the eastern side of the maps of Beleriand with those found on the western side of the maps in the Lord of the Rings. You will then see the before-and-after of the geophysical results of the Valars' War which ended in the final captivity of Morgoth at the end of the First Age.

Also it was also Christopher Tolkien's hypothesis (in which I concur) that Tol Fuin, the larger island to the west of Himling, was the highest part of Taur-nu-Fuin (Dorthonion). This is written at the end of the Introduction to UT which I am just now reading for the first time; however, I believe I also made that same claim to Ungoliant last summer when we were comparing maps.

Also it appears Tol Morwen may be the uppermost remainder of Amon Ereb. All these islands show up on Karen Wynn Fonstad's revised edition of The Atlas of Middle-earth. I know I had another map of current M-E that showed these islands; however, I can't seem to locate which book it was in. Only Himling shows up on our Website Maps.
Oh yeah....sorry about that Val....I did a mistake....Big Smile Smilie Angmar is far away from the coast!
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Perhaps (to theorize!) removing explicit mentions of Tol Fuin and Himl(r)ing (or simply not mentiong them again, as they had not been published anyway) could give Tol Morwen a more unique place in the legendarium? I note...


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'For this there can be no simple explanation, but it seems to me that an important element was the centrality that my father accorded to the story of Húrin and Morwen and their children (...) This became for him, I believe, the dominant and absorbing story of the end of the Elder Days, in which complexity of motive and character, trapped in the mysterious workings of Morgoth's curse, sets it altogether apart.' Christopher Tolkien Foreword The War of the jewels

In that case, one might wonder whether Tol Galen sank under the waves or not, considering Beren & Lúthien had lived the last years of their mortal lives there, and had undoubtedly been buried there.
In the revised edition of the late Karen Wynn Fonstad's the Atlas of Middle-earth on page 37, her Introduction to the Second Age of Arda, she states:
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In Middle-earth the lowlying graves of Túrin and Morwen withstood the turmoils as forseen.* Although Tol Morwen was described as "alone," it was perhaps the 'last' (most western) of the remaining lands. For as Beleriand was destroyed, many retreated to the highlands, and as the waters lapped the hills, they built ships in which to set sail. The last fragments of Dorthonion and the Hill of Himring remained as Tol Fuin and Himling: the Western Isles.**

*Sil pg 230
**UT pgs 13, 14; HOME IV pgs 159,199; HOME VII pg 302; Sil pg 285

She shows these Islands on her Map of the 'Second Age of Arda' on pg 38. She also wrote in the notes that she referenced the Houghton Mifflin editions of the above volumes. I haven't checked to see if she was correct, but she hasn't let me down to date.
The sources ultimately appear to be from the external history of the 'Silmarillion' (HME IV for example).
As Grondmaster says the only Isle still around in the Second Age are Tol Fuin, Tol Morwen, Himling and Tolfalas far in the Great Gulf near Gondor as is demonstarted in 'the Atlas of Tolkien's Middle-earth'. These are the only remnants of Beleriand in the First Age save Lindon. The Blue mountains have never been part of Beleriand they were simply the Eastern Border.

Beleriand in the first Age:

HERE

You will notice that Beleriand comprises mainly of the lands West of the Ered Luin which do not exist in the Third and Second Ages.
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As Grondmaster says the only Isle still around in the Second Age are Tol Fuin, Tol Morwen, Himling and Tolfalas far in the Great Gulf near Gondor as is demonstarted in 'the Atlas of Tolkien's Middle-earth'.


Tolkien himself couldn't approve this book, just to note it anyway. Interestingly JRRT once wrote:

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Beleriand -- 'The 'lost land of [the] Elder Days (of which Lindon was all that remained in the Third Age)' (JRRT, Unfinished Index for The Lord of the Rings).


Tol Morwen appears in later Silmarillion text.

Generally speaking I hold Tolkien-published texts as carrying top weight, although I've no idea why Himling was left out of first editions, and its omission certainly could have been a mere mistake, as CJRT seems to indicate by adding it in Unfinished Tales.
You are right to a certain degree Galin. Tolkien's works take priority over other peoples works on middle earth just like Tolkien's later idears take priority over his former ones. However this quote:

Beleriand -- 'The 'lost land of [the] Elder Days (of which Lindon was all that remained in the Third Age)' JRRT, Unfinished Index for The Lord of the Rings

Does not prove a point. As you have stated yourself we know Tol Morwen survived in the Third Age and that is not stated in the quote above so should we assume Tol Morwen did not exist as well in the Third Age? Therefore it is clear that the quote provided is clearly not including the few unpopulated islands that were around at the Third Age. Here is a couple of quotes to show the isle's of Himling and Tol Fuin were indeed parts of Beleriand that were not drowned in the wave:

"The mistaken inclusion of Rhudaur alone has been corrected by the addition of Cardolan and Arthedain, and I have shown the little island of Himling off the far north-western coast, which appears on one of my father's sketch-maps and on my own first draft. Himling was the earlier form of Himring (the great hill on which Maedhros son of Fëanor had his fortress in The Silmarillion), and though the fact is nowhere referred to it is clear that Himring's top rose above the waters that covered drowned Beleriand. Some way to the west of it was a larger island named Tol Fuin, which must be the highest part of Taur-nu-Fuin." Unfinished Tales

"Of the size and number of these 'great isles' we are not told. On one of my father's sketchmaps made for The Lord of the Rings there is the island of Himling, i.e. the summit of the Hill of Himring, and also Tol Fuin, i.e. the highest part of Taur-na-Fuin (see Unfinished Tales pp. 13 - 14); and in The Silmarillion (p. 230) it is said that the stone of the Children of Hurin and the grave of Morwen above Cabed Naeramarth stands on Tol Morwen 'alone in the water beyond the new coasts that were made in the days of the wrath of the Valar'." Shaping of Middle-earth

"After the 'breaking of the North' in the Great Battle, the shape of the North-west of Middle-earth was changed. Nearly all Beleriand was drowned in the Sea. Taur na Fuin became an Island. The mountains of Eredwethion &c. became small isles (so also Himling)." Treason of Isengard

"On the other hand the statement that Eredlindon was now at no point further than 200 miles from the Sea agrees well with that map,(17) and we meet here an apparently unique reference to the isles of Tol Fuin and Himling, which are shown on it.(18)" Treason of Isengard

There are a few more but that is about the jist of it. Clearly Himling and Tol Fuin does exist as Isle's in the Third Age, as does Tol Morwen and Tolfalas in the south but are not really worth a mention.
For whatever reason Himling was not published in any editions of The Lord of the Rings, nor on the P. Baynes map (concerning which JRRT added certain details). I can't seem to locate a very specific reason, at least, as to what happened in 1954, as to why exactly Himling did not appear on these maps.
You can be sure that if there was a later map approved by Tolkien concerning whether these islands really did exist or not then Karen wynn fonstadd would have used it.
Just becuase the islands are not mentioned in later texts does not mean they did not exist or that it is a contradiction to earlier texts.
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Just becuase the islands are not mentioned in later texts does not mean they did not exist or that it is a contradiction to earlier texts.


I agree. The small point is that these details on Tol Fuin and Himling are simply different compared to Tol Falas for example, the mere distinction being that Tolkien himself published the latter (though yes he had certainly written about the former in any case).
It is clear what your point is Galin. What your basically saying is this:

Those islands are not inlcluded in later drafts only earlier ones so we shouldn't really classify them as solid evidence.

That is fair enough. I do not say for certain that these islands were what Tolkien wished to be in his later thoughts. However what i am saying is We KNOW Tolkien did ONCE wish for these islands to be, therefore just becuase he did not mention them in later texts does not mean that he had discarded with the idear of them. Why would he bother mentioning them more than he did? They were uninhabited ancient reminders of places in the First Age that did nothing in later ages. The fact that Tolkien bothers mentioning them at all is wonder enough, without him later contradicting there existance.

The Atlas of Tolkien's middle-earth I assume you don't have. If you do decide to purchase it you will see that Karen Wynn Fonstadd only maps and says things that are complete speculation with warning to the reader. Seeing as she clearly thought the evidence supporting the existance of the islands was sufficient enough to map them it would be better to assume they exist and be willing to change mind if later proven otherwise than vise versa.
This applies with many aspects of Tolkien's works. It is best to think thus:

If it did exist in early drafts, except it with the later ones unless proved otherwise.
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It is clear what your point is Galin. What your basically saying is this: Those islands are not inlcluded in later drafts only earlier ones so we shouldn't really classify them as solid evidence.


I would say rather, generally speaking, it's sometimes hard to tell if drafts written in the 1930s or early 1940s even, necessarily certainly represent Tolkien's ideas in the 1950s and 60s (or early 70s). JRRT could easily change his mind about something yet not have noted it anywhere.

In any case CJRT's addition of Himling arguably speaks to his opinion that the detail was left out accidentally. It seems merely possible (but so are many thing 'merely possible' of course) that Tolkien might have later rejected Himling and never told his son perhaps, or left any written evidence, but that's just pure speculation and even if true, there would, of course, be no fault on Christopher Tolkien's part.

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The Atlas of Tolkien's middle-earth I assume you don't have.


I do have it actually Smile Smilie
If you only accept details which are published explicitedly by Tollkien in his latest drafts you will unfortunatley be excluding some fundermental idears and miss out on some interesting tales. The Dagor Dagorath for instance you cannot really believe in seeing as its fullest account is given in the Shaping of Middle-earth. Perhaps you don't believe in the Tale of Adenel which tells of Men's first encounter with Melkor and how they were enslaved seeing as thats in Morgoth's ring.
The full account of Galadriel and Celeborn cannot really be true becuase its in UT. The tale of the five Istari mustn't be true seeing as its in UT. Basically you think anything that is in the HOME series and UT should not be counted as solid evidence.

I can understand your view on what is to be adhered to and what should be discarded and this can be both good and bad. On the one part what you do say comes from Tolkien's later publications so is generally right. But on the Other hand you may be discarding alot of idears that Tolkien did wish to happen but perhaps did not get the chance to publish in a suitable form.
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Perhaps you don't believe in the Tale of Adenel which tells of Men's first encounter with Melkor and how they were enslaved seeing as thats in Morgoth's ring.


Where did I ever say I don't 'believe' in texts from Morgoth's Ring? or Unfinished Tales?

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The full account of Galadriel and Celeborn cannot really be true becuase its in UT. The tale of the five Istari mustn't be true seeing as its in UT. Basically you think anything that is in the HOME series and UT should not be counted as solid evidence.


Not so. And there's no real need for you to try and tell me what I think.

I know what I think Smile Smilie
Basically there IS evidence, perhaps not concrete, but evidence nonetheless, to show that Tol Fuin and Himling were indeed islands of the Third Age. Until I have seen something that remotely repels that idear (of which Nothing has been posted as yet) I take it as proof. Smile Smilie
Okay guys, you are starting to repeat your points so you may as well agree to disagree, because one of you has a conservative view and the other a more liberal view of what is in the canon and what is not. Without a Medium in direct contact with the Professor, our judgements are at best subjective. Still it is fun to speculate; and sometimes we learn something from the other side's viewpoint, but this will seldom lead us to change sides. Elf Winking Smilie
I'm not sure if this was mentioned already, but where Túrin Turambar was laid to rest was not drowned by the Valars wraith and the rising sea either. Although I doubt you coud considered it an island.
All this bickering over a piece of rock... Elf Winking Smilie

When delving I ran across across at least one early reference (IIRC) to Lindon and Beren & Lúthien (keeping in mind your earlier post about Tol Galen Virumor). I can post it later maybe...

... unless you've lost interest here Smile Smilie
Unless something definate can be provided one way or the other (I have searched through all the e-books I posses and that includes the HOME series, The sil, LOTR, The Hobbit and UT) and I cannot find anything that truly disproves the idear that these islands did not exist in Tolkien's later idears. Indeed all I can find on them is Tolkien's earlier drafts about them existing in the third Age - nothing concrete to disprove them later.
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... unless you've lost interest here

Not at all... I figure as Tolkien didn't submerge the grave of Túrin, he would most certainly not do the same with the graves of Beren & Lúthien...
Of course not, he wouldn't want them to drown, come their resurrection. Elf Sticking Tounge Out Smilie
Actually, the two star-crossed lovers were buried there when they died after their return from Mandos, but you of course knew that. Elf Sticking Tounge Out Smilie
I did some dating, anyway, with respect to the maps:

1953 Dec

Tolkien writes to R. Unwin. He hopes to provide A&U with proofs of Vol. I and a map: '... presumably marked page proofs and the general map of Middle-earth redrawn by Christopher Tolkien.' (H&S).

1954 February

Tolkien notes he will try to get Christopher to draw the Shire map during a weekend. Tolkien thinks the proof of Christopher's map looks very well, except he has some scale concerns and notes that Minas Tirith is too hard to read.

1954 April

Minas Tirith is corrected (made more legible). Tolkien also remarks in a letter with respect to the Shire map and the general map: 'I may say that my son's maps are beautifully clear, as far as reduction in reproduction allows; but they do not contain everything, alas!'

1954 May

Tolkien gets final proofs and approves maps.

1955 April

Tolkien and son Christopher work intensively on a map of Rohan, Gondor, and Mordor for The Return of the King.

Thanks to Hammond and Scull's amazing new books on JRRT.
Tol Fuin and Himling:
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Island off the coast of northwestern Middle-earth. Tol Fuin was located just west of the smaller island of Himling. The two islands were in the Sea west of the northernmost part of Lindon.
Tol Fuin was formed at the end of the First Age when Beleriand was ruined in the War of Wrath and much of the land sank beneath the Sea. The island of Tol Fuin was all that remained of the forested highlands of Taur-nu-Fuin, a place of fear and dread where Sauron once dwelled.

Note:
Only the island of Himling is shown on most maps of Middle-earth. Tol Fuin is shown on the maps in "The First Map" chapter of HoME VII, a portion of which is included
Here.

So it clearly states that Tol fuin does exsists west of Himling and Lindon and didn't sink in the War of Wrath.Big Smile Smilie
Glorfindel - Your flogging a dead horse. Wink Smilie I have tried to convince Galin that the islands do exist but there is seemingly no proof alive that he will adhere to. Best to just say 'Oh ok Galin...' Big Smile Smilie
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Glorfindel - Your flogging a dead horse. I have tried to convince Galin that the islands do exist but there is seemingly no proof alive that he will adhere to. Best to just say 'Oh ok Galin...'


By the way I have never argued that Tolkien certainly abandoned the idea, though I have noted the 'possibility' he might have, and, though it would be no fault of CJRT's of course, JRRT might never have expressed this to anyone.

It's also perfectly possible that Tolkien viewed the omission of Himling in 1954 as a mistake, and although he didn't have it added later, perhaps the matter slipped his mind when he had the chance to add Himling to the P. Baynes map, for example.
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When delving I ran across across at least one early reference (IIRC) to Lindon and Beren & Lúthien too (keeping in mind your earlier post about Tol Galen Virumor). I can post it later maybe...

Back to this matter: did Tol Galen become a part of Ossiriand after the War of Wrath?
Tol Galen doesn't exist after The War of Wrath. I got a map of Ossirialand in the Third Age and it doesn't exist. Look at this map now.
~The Sunkenlands~
It doesn't exist on it because of the Tumults of the First Age.

Namarie!
I did another post for I just remarked that anywhere in the Forum and there's a disscussion and Galin's in it, it is very hard to convince Galin. Does anyone else think that Galin is too hard to convince???

Namarie!
If you have a clearly more superior argument at hand with quotes conclusive he will then try to bombard the matter with long explanations and dates of different things.

Take this quote for example:

"I have shown the little island of Himling off the far north-western coast, which appears on one of my father's sketch-maps and on my own first draft. Himling was the earlier form of Himring (the great hill on which Maedhros son of Fëanor had his fortress in The Silmarillion), and though the fact is nowhere referred to it is clear that Himring's top rose above the waters that covered drowned Beleriand. Some way to the west of it was a larger island named Tol Fuin, which must be the highest part of Taur-nu-Fuin."

Christipher Tolkien clearly says that although Tolkien didn't specifically mention it, it is CLEAR that Himling did rise above the waters. Fair do's he doesn't give much of an explanation but we have his clear statement saying that it did.
Moderator Smilie Please people, let us try not to get personal; it only makes distracts from the discussions. Just chalk it up to the difference in our memberss style and grin and bear what gets your goat. Of course sometimes I also have trouble maintaining that attitude and then get kidded by certain members when when my slip shows. Elf With a Big Grin Smilie
In any case I give great weight to whatever Christopher Tolkien says, but it is also true that with respect to certain of Tolkien's shifting ideas even CJRT must sometimes guess, or simply might not know about (as he expresses in The History of Middle-Earth series at points).
Been down this road before Galin and I hope you don't mind me taking a turning off this time. Whilst you do indeed seem to have a fairly in depth knowledge of Tolkien's work you must realise that:

Tolkien himself has executed flaws,
There is no way now left to know, or even speculate a probability, on what Tolkien might or might not have approved had this particular subject come to his attention,
Taking Christophers own words can be lightly set aside with the dismiss of a few dates.

It like the 'Who is more evil, Sauron or Morgoth' question. Just becuase a singular flaw-filled quote appears in one of Tolkien's letters that somehow that gives people the right to say that Sauron, the fallen angelic sub-Power is more evil than the Fallen God, 'The Devil' (to quote JRR himself), Melkor, the Great rebel of Good.
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Whilst you do indeed seem to have a fairly in depth knowledge of Tolkien's work you must realise that: Tolkien himself has executed flaws,


We all make mistakes.

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Taking Christophers own words can be lightly set aside with the dismiss of a few dates.


I'm not sure what you're trying to say here actually.
Galin if you find some way of contacting Christopher Tolkien and asking him about this matter in particular tell me. Or give me the contact details...
Otherwise the only answer is 'We will never know'. However Christopher is likely to have a much better idear what Tolkien's last thoughts were on the subject becuase he knows things which Tolkien hadn't had time, or didn't think worth publishing again.

On the last point I meant to say 'cannot be lightly set aside'.
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Tol Galen doesn't exist after The War of Wrath. I got a map of Ossirialand in the Third Age and it doesn't exist. Look at this map now. ~The Sunkenlands~ It doesn't exist on it because of the Tumults of the First Age.


Tol Galen maybe exists according to this map (I think); not as an island of course, but I don't think that's what Virumor meant. I think (or guess) the question was more about the area that once included Tol Galen, and on the linked map at least, the area that included Tol Galen looks like it survives in Harlindon (this map even seems to show part of the river Adurant as surviving).

I don't have any recent editions of The Silmarillion, do newer versions include a scale of miles?

Interesting that the later Silmarillion map (War of the Jewels) shows a small line of mountains extending South from the main chain 'around' Tol Galen (not wholly around it to the South or West however). Christopher Tolkien remarks: 'L 14-15 The mountains on these squares, extending northward onto K-15, were pencilled in very rapidly, and those to the north of Tol Galen were possibly cancelled.'

I was wondering if any of these mountains appear in later editions (mine date from the 1970s)

Just to mention it: 'It is said that the mounds of Tyrn Gorthad, as the Barrow Downs were called of old, are very ancient, and that many were built in the days of the old world of the First Age by the forefathers of the Edain, before they crossed the Blue Mountains into Beleriand, of which Lindon is all that now remains.' Appendix A

Of course this need not mean Himling doesn't exist, and is a general enough statement.
I think you will find that 'Lindon is all that remains' is a VERY general outlook. Tiny uninhabited islands would doubtfully be included in this.
Hmmm, Tol Fuin seems hardly 'tiny' I think Smile Smilie
True, Tol Fuin is much bigger but is still unnhabited as far as I know. Do we here much talk about the Dark Lands or the Lands of Sun in the far East of Arda beyond the Eastern sea? The Dark Land is about the size of Aman and yet we here even less about it that the Lands of Sun. They are unihabited so why talk about them?
From the very start I have capitulated the easy possibility that the islands in question are simply not under consideration in certain passages.

Anyone have anything on the two Tol Galen questions I posed today?
What were your questions regarding Tol Galen? I cannot find them.
This part:

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I don't have any recent editions of The Silmarillion, do newer versions include a scale of miles?

Interesting that the later Silmarillion map (War of the Jewels) shows a small line of mountains extending South from the main chain 'around' Tol Galen (not wholly around it to the South or West however). Christopher Tolkien remarks: 'L 14-15 The mountains on these squares, extending northward onto K-15, were pencilled in very rapidly, and those to the north of Tol Galen were possibly cancelled.'

I was wondering if any of these mountains appear in later editions (mine date from the 1970s)


And I mean 'on the map' of course, with respect to a scale of miles.

The little island is not Balar at all, that was completely destroyed in the Downfall of Beleriand. The island was Tol Morwen, which Iluvatar spared because it was the burial place of Turin and Morwen. That was the only part of Beleriand to survive, other than Lindon. Beleriand, the whole western half of Middle Earth, was sunk beneath the Sea by the tremendous conflict of the Powers. Ancalagon falling on Thangorodrim was a major cause of the disaster. Beleriand was completely tunnelled under by the Orcs, and it simply collapsed. It will never exist again. Middle Earth's entire west coast from the glacial icecap of the North to Cape Andrast, did not exist prior to the conflict. It was a result of Beleriand's collapse. Iluvatar forbade the Valar ever to come in force to Arda again because the damage was so great; that's why they had to send the Istari in the Third Age. I think it's interesting that the River Lhun flowed into Lake Evendim before the Sea punched a hole in the Blue Mountains.

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