Thread: Morgoth's Domicile
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"No Orc dared ever after to pass over the mount of Fingolfin or draw nigh his tomb, until the doom of Gondolin was come and treachery was born among his kin. Morgoth went ever halt of one foot after that day, and the pain of his wounds could not be healed; and in his face was the scar that Thorondor made."
Doesn't this get it right ?
Is there anything in the letters or in HOME that gives us more clarification?
This discussion should pobablly be moved to Morgoth or Morgoth's Feet under Characters.
Reading your quotes, however, Virumor, I can see how you come to interpret it as his foot being hacked off. The words Tolkien has used can be interpreted either way.
but the Valar cut off his feet when they put Angainor on him again.
but his feet were hewn from under him, and he was hurled upon his face.
The canonical on Turin coming back in the Dagorath and together with Eonwe (pre-cusor of Maia Warrior Fionwe. Fionwe is here a son of Manwe in a timeline in which the Valar were still capable of pro-creation.
Back to the 'Second Prophecy of Mandos' which is given in the Early Quenta Silmarillion. As I said it is doubtful whether Turin's slaying of Morgoth in the Dagorath is true, and rather it should belong with the earlier pre-LoTR Silmarillion work, although it is mentioned once or twice in the Latter Quentas.
Even though there is never (Or I belive) any abanonment of the Second Prophecy but one can assume that all evidence is weighed against the events mentioned actually taking place. As I have mentioned the Second Prophecy is not a authentic Noldorin text, in fact the 'Athrabeth' claims that there wasn't even a prophecy that Namo made concerning Arda's end:
This quote from the Valaquenat in the Published Silmarillion should disprove it too:
and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwė and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos.
One can therefore assume that it was a Numenorean courruption of a Eldarin text, or idea, liek the ideas of the Sun and Moon coming from the Two Trees, but it seems this has little basis. I believe Andreth comments on him coming back to slay Ancalagon, though this was later given to Earendil, and at one point Turin came back in the Dagorath to slay Anacalagon. It's VERY confusing.
Turin was also a man, so wouldn't this be impossible and aganst his 'fate' to stay in Mandos? And doesn't he become a 'Child of a God' at the end? Also note, again the term 'Child of a God' represents Numenorean mythos since the Valar shouldn't rightly be called 'gods' but were dubbed so by some men, It's kind of like Gimli calling Galadriel 'Queen of Lothlorien'.
Addition: It seems that Turin's coming back was one of Andreth's prophecies, carried down perhaps:
The language of the Folk of Haleth was not used, for they had perished and would not rise again. Nor would their tongue be heard again, unless the prophecy of Andreth the Wise-woman should prove true, that Tśrin in the Last Battle should return from the Dead, and before he left the Circles of the World for ever should challenge the Great Dragon of Morgoth, Ancalagon the Black, and deal him the death-stroke.
I don't think Sauron is smarter, he forged a Ring, then lost it and eventually he got destructed by means of his own Ring === poetic justice ?
I think Morgoth was evil, so he did what all evil guys would do : annihilate the Creation, and afterwards create a new world under his own, new order in which he would rule everyone and everything. And he almost succeeded in that, if the Valar wouldn't have interfered. (that was kind of a anticlimax for Morgoth - i really like to see his face when he heard about this)
Come on think about it....he wipes out the stronger folks......then he wipes out his own host of weaker kind......quite logical to do if someone wants total power over one kingdom as big as Arda!
The power he most wanted was teh power to create, since these are the nearest he can get to this power why would he undo all of his work. he would have most likely have bent their will to a different cause!
his was sheer nihilism, and negation its one ultimate object: Morgoth would no doubt if he had been victorious, have ultimately destroyed even his own 'creatures', such as the Orcs, when they had served his sole purpose in using them: the destruction of Elves and Men. Melkor's final impotence and despair lay in this: that whereas the Valar (and in their degree Elves and Men) could still love 'Arda Marred', that is Arda with a Melkor-ingredient, and could still heal this or that hurt, or produce from its very marring, from its state as it was, things beautiful and lovely Melkor could do nothing with Arda, which was not from his own mind and was interwoven with the work and thoughts of others: even left alone he could only have gone raging on till all was levelled again into a formless chaos. And yet even so he would have been defeated, because it would still have 'existed',independent of his own mind, and a world in potential.
[Edited on 30/5/2003 by Findekano]
Back down? When did I ever get angry or give out a sense that I dot respect your opinion? I'm just correcting soemthing that I feel you have erred in, I thought that was a integral part of a forum.
Tolkien also just said it was possible/plausible that Morgoth would do that, but he didn't say Morgoth indeed would do that.
I mean, look at the different stories Tolkien wrote about Galadriel and Celeborn - it doesn't really matter which story/idea was the real one, it are just possibilities Tolkien pointed out. It's better not to focus blindly on one possible detail of many possibilities, but instead just focus on the whole story and accept the different possibilities.
In my opinion, if Morgoth would destroy everything living on Arda after he won, evil or good, he wouldn't have much minions to rule, would he ? Of course, he could make some new species like Aulė did with the Naugrim, but ultimately it is Eru who brings them to life, not Melkor so i think Melkor would be a bit lonely if he did such a thing OR Melkor would be the Lord of some zombierace.
Some of what has been written in the Sil was later found to be incorrect or out of date when Christopher reviewed his father's notes while preparing the H.O.M.E. series.
If Toilkien had dated his notes, finding which ideas were the more current would have been easier; as it is, it will take a forensic detective to untangle the mess using Tolkien's Letters as a tool in doing so, for J.R.R.T. often changed his mind and reverted to the original idea after all.
There are many ideas like Balrog wings and Tom Bombadil's origin which hang twisting in the wind because there are too many facets for us to know which is the correct one.
So be nice and quit taking things personal and knock-off the name calling.
Who knows what Tolkien, himself, would have settled on had he actually published The Silmarillion (and other ME tales) before his death.
But it is all Tolkien's creation and all the versions of his works make for very interesting reading.
It's an opinion with disgarded ideas of tolkien. Please note disgarded ideas and stories.
But I feared that efter the second post Findekano made that we would have a BIG arguement.....and I hope I haven“t hurt anyones feelings.....
Oh and by the way.....if you guys wish to be yelling at each other....let some steam out at the Grumble Mumble Gergle Hi thread.....There you can have a dogfight but still in a civilised version
I hope we can see you there Findekano....and some of you others
And how could i ever forget Findekano?
Actually i doubt that description, as Beren didn't encounter any wolfies when he hid under Morgy's throne whilst his lover was dancing in front of Morgy's throne. That description is a bit too Dark Lord® for me.
Incidentally I have to disagree that Fingolfin cut off Morgoth's foot. From the Lay...
... the mighty foot pale Ringil clave
about the heel, and black the blood
gushed as from smoking fount in flood.
Halt goes for ever from that stroke
great Morgoth; but the king he broke,
Or from the Grey Annals, §157: 'In his last throe Fingolfin pinned the foot of his Enemy to the earth with Ringil, and the black blood gushed forth and filled the pits of Grond. Morgoth went ever halt thereafter.'
Going halt means going maimed I would say. Also if Morgoth later (War of Wrath) had feet then he still had more than one after this confrontation.
I have to agree with you Galin, I don't think he only thereafter had one foot.
Vir, just how old is Planet-Tolkien? I too nearly drowned in a public pool and no one even noticed or helped me. Freaked me out for the rest of my childhood. (shivers)