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At the End of the Third Age, would Middle Earth be similar to what Middle Earth was like in the First Age?? Look Around Smilie

what i mean is, where would Beleriand be in comparison to Gondor??

i know both are along the West Coast, but thats it...

does anyone else know?? Elf Confused Smilie
What...If you need to, you can look at a map in the Silm. Or maybe I don't understand your question.

Besides topographically middle earth wouldn't really be similiar to the first age. Because in the first age melkor kept sabotaging the works of the other valar and ainur (sp?). Also there weren't orcs and men in the first age... I believe. At least they weren't as dominant, with the recession of the elves. I do need to reread the Silm, and I guess I could suggest the same for you.

Hope I could help...But I probably didn't. Big Laugh Smilie
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Besides topographically middle earth wouldn't really be similiar to the first age. Because in the first age melkor kept sabotaging the works of the other valar and ainur (sp?). Also there weren't orcs and men in the first age... I believe. At least they weren't as dominant, with the recession of the elves. I do need to reread the Silm, and I guess I could suggest the same for you.

The First Age began when the Sun was made and when the Noldor returned to Beleriand to retrieve the Silmarils. Melkor marred the works of the Valar during the making of Arda, hence ages before the First Age began; even before the Valar made Valinor and the Age of the Trees began.

Not to mention, the First Age was full of Orcs, Elves, Dwarves and Men. There were hardly any Orcs and Elves left in the Fourth Age.

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what i mean is, where would Beleriand be in comparison to Gondor??

Most part of Beleriand sank under the waves after the First Age. This didn't exactly happen to Gondor.
With the exception of the immediate environs of Orodruin (which feature prominently in a short story I thought I could never share, but get to write now that i can post it here) I don't thing Middle-Earth changes significantly at the end of the Third Age. It might have changed more after the drowning of Numenor. So the location of Beleriand is unchanged: largely submerged.
Yup, the only things that got submerged at the end of the Third Age were Sarumen's underground works in Isengard and the area of Mordor in the vicinty of Orodruin which was inundated by lava flows and ash. Oh and Barad-Dûr, whose foundation sort of floated apart when the ground under it liquified, causing the tower to crumble. I suppose there was also a tide or tsunami of Sauron's allies fleeing towards the south and east to their homelands.
In the War of Wrath the forces of both sides were so fierce that the whole Beleriand got drowned. Read the Silmarillion carefully, it should be in the war of wrath section, something about the "sea running through many chasms in the earth" and stuff. Anyways, Beleriand sunk beneath the sea. But Beleriand was always on the west side of Middle-Earth. And you'll notice on the maps at the back of the Sil. and LOTR they have one thing in common : the blue mountains at the easternmost of Beleriand and the blue mountains at the northwestern of ME. So, in comparision to Gondor, Bekeriand would be on the west or northwest side.
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and LOTR they have one thing in common : the blue mountains at the easternmost of Beleriand and the blue mountains at the northwestern of ME. So, in comparision to Gondor, Bekeriand would be on the west or northwest side.

Lindon of Middle-Earth = East Ossiriand of Beleriand.
check out here for a reconstitution of Beleriand

Not quite sure it is reliable - but seems quite correct.

Apart from that I'm new here - so hello to everybody. Elf Rolling Eyes Smilie
Heya EädollonWaving Hello Smilie I'm not very good on reading maps but I did have a look at it ..
Anyway welcome to PT Smile Smilie `Nice Avatar . hope to see you around
Hi Eädollon, welcome to our happy family. Happy Elf Smilie

That map is okay except I think it is bent too far to the northwest once it gets west of the Gulf of Lune. This is probably due to the curature of Arda and projecting a curved map onto a flat page.

However now that I've looked at it I guess it depend where you put the Gulf of Lune. I figured it lies between the two Cities of the Dwarves, putting them both under water. And then I figured that Nargothrond was at about the same latitude as the Grey Havens. Of course I'm probably wrong on all this. We do have Himling as a common point on both maps which should help.
Here is another map Beleriand+Eriador.

Quite good IMO.

Interesting to notice Tol Morween as a reference point - which I think (?) is the location of Turin Turambar' grave. Also a pace called Gondobar which I believe is the not far from Gondolin
Gondobar is another name for Gondolin... or was anyway, as it was once one of the Seven names of Gondolin according to some old texts. The name also appears in a poem possibly dated 1940? (Tolkien himself dated it this way anyway)

O happy mariners upon a journey far,
beyond the grey Islands and past Gondobar,


See The Tale of Earendel from the early The Book of Lost Tales. Although Christopher Tolkien himself notes that he cannot explain this reference, apparently someone is using this for an Island called 'Gondobar'.
According to that map, it seems Tol Galen did not sink beneath the waves. Just as I had expected and hoped.

Although since it is not mentioned, it seems that one of the arms of Adurant enveloping the island, dried up. Alas!
Galin is right. I have searched through virtually all Tolkien resourses and there is no mention of Tol Taras, Tol Ramdal and no mention that I can see of Tol Galen, the isle of Beren and Luthien ascending above the waves.
As for Gondabar there is a small extract in BOLT 2 but I do not value it much. As for all those unamed islands I think they have been added for effect.
The only ones I think are genuine are Tol Fuin, Tol Morwen and Himling/Himring.
I am a bit wary of net sources in general, though some probably are well based on the texts.
Well not to get too off-topic but:

"...and I have shown the little island of Himling off the far north-western coast, which appears on one of my father's sketch-maps and on my own first draft. Himling was the earlier form of Himring (the great hill on which Maedhros son of Fëanor had his fortress in The Silmarillion), and though the fact is nowhere referred to it is clear that Himring's top rose above the waters that covered drowned Beleriand. Some way to the west of it was a larger island named Tol Fuin, which must be the highest part of Taur-nu-Fuin." Unfinished Tales

Christopher says 'Its clear that Himling rose above drowed beleriand' and that it appeared on one of Tolkien's sketch maps. Also he says about Tol Fuin being an island pretty casually as though its fact.
Just to mention it, I noticed that sources for Tol Fuin and Himling are dated generally about the same time as the mention of Gondobar above.

As I think I have noted before, one will not find Himling on every map, depending upon which edition a given person has, or consults.
Well UT is pretty sturdy, unlike HOME and Christopher Tolkien's words are pretty clear and to the point - Himling 'Clearly rose above drowned Beleraind' and 'Tol Fuin was an Island'. Ignore them if you will but you overstep the path of wisdom if you do...
I'm well aware of CJRT's statements in UT and quote Christopher Tolkien very very often in Tolkien discussion.
Still the question remains unsolved....

On the one side we have Christopher Tolkien saying that Tol Fuin and Himling are definate and that Tolkien added them to his first maps.

On the other side they are not added to Tolkien's latest map.

Which side to choose?????
im back!
stumbled here and a specific sentense caught my eye!
something about gondolin and gondobar and the seven names!
i being so rash immediatly pressed the reply button whit this question only:
what are the 7 names of gondolin!!!!!!!!!?????
Good question Smile Smilie

Grey-elven Gondolin interpreted as 'Hidden Rock' and Ondolinde 'Rock of the Music of Water' (High-elven) are noted. The later Fall of Gondolin (in Unfinished Tales) was at least written after The Lord of the Rings was completed, but it seemingly never gets far enough to give us the 'updated' actual names!

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'Here the narrative finally comes to an end, and there remains only some hasty jottings indicating the course of the story. Tuor asked the name of the city, and was told its seven names. (It is notable, and no doubt intentional, that the name Gondolin is never once used in the narrative until the very end (...): always it is called the Hidden Kingdom or the Hidden City).'

Unfinished Tales


Early names from The Book of Lost Tales are noted too:
1) Gondolin 'Stone of Song'
2) Gondobar (in the Gnomish Lexicon 'Gonthobar') 'City of Stone'
3) Gondothlimbar 'City of the Dwellers in Stone'
4) Gwarestrin 'Tower of Guard' ('Watchtower')
5) Gar Thurion 'Secret Place'
6) Loth 'Flower'
7) Lothengriol 'Flower that blooms on the plain'

There exist the variants: Gar Furion, Lôs 'a flower and in Eldarissa losse which is a rose (all after the word flower struck through)' and Lósengriol 'flower of the Vale or lily of the valley'.

Later than The Book of Lost Tales, in Etymologies one finds: Gondobar, or for example 'Another name of Gondolin Gondost...' or '... Garthurian = fenced Realm = N Ardholen (which was also applied to Gondolin)' or 'cf. Garth(th)oren 'fenced fort' = Gondolin - distinguish Ardh-thoren = Garthurian.'

There's also Loth-a-ladwen 'Lily of the Plain' said (back in HME III) to have replaced Lothengriol (see 'Poems Early Abandoned' and the footnote concerning this form)

There's probably more that could be posted on this. From these we might guess at a list of updated names at least (while considering that JRRT had come to be working in Sindarin or Grey-elven too, as opposed to the very early Gnomish language).
my thanks to you my friend!
a wery good answer you didnt leave me much to think about Big Smile Smilie!
thanks!
Probably a stupid idea - but I wonder if figure 7 has some special/hidden signification with respect to Gondolin : Gondolin has 7 names, 7 gates
I This answer is stupid (though the above poster isn't); it just popped into my head: The city took on a different name after you passed through each of its seven gates. Silly I know, but I can see in my mind's eye, a unique name carved on the lintle above each of those seven gates.

Also, Tolkien knew that the number seven had a symbolic biblical significance. I don't remember what it was, but there was the biblical question: 'How many times should you forgive one who betrays you,' and its answer: 'Seven times seven'.
I just thought - which map are you refering to Galin that doesn't have Himling on it?

My Copy of The Lord of the Rings has about 5 maps in the back and Himling is listed on the one which shows Eriador and the lands west of Middle-earth.
I'm referring to any map published while Tolkien was alive, including the Pauline Baynes map. At least as far as I know, Himling does not appear on any map published during these years.

I believe the maps in the back of the Harper Collins Paperback editions (black in colour) are created whilst Tolkien was alive. And they contain Himling.
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Lord of All posted: I believe the maps in the back of the Harper Collins Paperback editions (black in colour) are created whilst Tolkien was alive. And they contain Himling.


Why do you believe this?

Tolkien passed away in 1973 of course. In 1986 Allen & Unwin merged with another company to become Unwin Hyman, which was sold in a takeover bid to HarperCollins in 1990.

There's no entry for the Isle of Himling in early versions of Robert Foster's guide, although there is for the Hill of Himring from the 1977 Silmarillion. Had the island of Himling appeared on any map published while Tolkien was alive I'm guessing Robert Foster would have included an entry for it.