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Thread: How to say/write (this word):

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Galin the Wise and little ol' me started a nice conversation in Do you like Tom Bombadil?, which I thought would be better moved over to this section. Maybe others would like to join in too. Smile Smilie

It began with the dots above the e in Amarië.
Here follows Quotes from the discussion
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Galin:
Just to note it, the 'dots' (diaeresis) are not really necessary. Amarie sounds the same without 'em. Long vowels should properly be represented however (with an acute accent for example, if there's a long vowel in a word or name).

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Amarië:
Quote:
Amarie sounds the same without 'em.

Yes, if you speak Sindarin/Quenya/Scandinavian/*insert language*

I don't mind people writing my 'name' without the dots. I have a Norwegian keyboard and don't have to use the alt codes, so it is easy for me. But Tolkien wrote it Amarië, and my nick is the elven name Amarië from the Sil, not the French name Amarie (which I assume is pronounced Amari). So I use the dots to help people get my 'name' right. Wink Smilie

But you can also call me Ama. Elf Winking Smilie

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Thinker
yeah Galin also right but i think it would be really nice if we could use those dots.....and Grondy have also posted the key codes........as a Tolkien club it's great to use his language. Orc With Thumbs Up Smilie

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Galin
The Quenya words mára 'good' and márie 'goodness' are attested with long vowels, as is namárie (which contains márie). The name Amárie might have a related derivation, though I can't remember if Tolkien himself ever explained this name specifically.

In any case, at all occurrences in The History of Middle-Earth the name has a long vowel: Amárie. I don't know why it appears with a short vowel in the 1977 Silmarillion (in my early editions at least).

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Amarië
Quote:
The name Amárie might have a related derivation, though I can't remember if Tolkien himself ever explained this name specifically.

I don't think he has. It might mean 'good' and that's fine with me. Smile Smilie My real name means 'war'. Wink Smilie

Quote:
I don't know why it appears with a short vowel in the 1977 Silmarillion

I don't know the reasoning behind Chris' choises. But if I remember correctly from the Quenya classes we used to have, then the stress in a four syllable word is always on the second syllable.
A-ma-ri-e. So there shouldn't be a need to write Amárie.

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Galin
Quote:
I don't know the reasoning behind Chris' choises. But if I remember correctly from the Quenya classes we used to have, then the stress in a four syllable word is always on the second syllable. A-ma-ri-e. So there shouldn't be a need to write Amárie.


I would guess maybe this was a mistake (not necessarily CJRT's) but I'm not sure in any case. I wonder if later editions have the same spelling.

Anyway, long vowels should be marked and are also noted when writing in the tengwar. Stress is a different matter, but the primary stress in the four syllable example elentári is elentAri because the penult, or second to last syllable, contains a long vowel (one example from Return of the King).

The primary stress in Amárie is amArie, that's true, but that's because the penult is short.

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Galin
Quote:
The primary stress in Amárie is amArie, that's true, but that's because the penult is short.

*looks up penult* Aha!

Yes, I shouldn't have used always. I should have said that the stress is on the second syllable, unless it is show to be somewhere else. As it is in elentári (thank you for using a word I knew btw. Wink Smilie ) This is *very* simplified of course, so that Quenya newbies like me would get a base to build on. Sadly I have forgotten all the other rules, except that Teleri rhymes with celery. That still hurts my ears.

I think I will copy the Quenya part of this discussion to the Elvish section.

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And here ends the quotes, but hopefully many educational posts will follow. Smile Smilie
*Tries to find something educational* Read Smilie

This would be very similar to Avallónë, you have the long vowel plus the dotted e at the end. It is a four syllable word and fits your description from above, from what I can see. From doing abit of reading, I found that all words ending with ë is pronounced 'eh' with a breath sound. Like with Aulë, it is pronounced 'ow-leh', from where I read. The ë is what sparked this conversation anyway, so I thought I'd bring this into light. Is this correct?

I've always though that it would be a solid vowel sound when words end with the dotted e, like in the 'Note on Pronounciation' in the back of The Sil, I have the Second Edition, I'm unsure of how many there are, but it says on the vowel 'e';

Quote:
E - at the end of words is always pronounced as a distinct vowel, and in this position is written ë. It is likewise always pronounced in the middle of words like Celeborn, Menegroth.

With Celeborn you do have the breath 'eh' in the middle which is what the above quote says. Distinct vowel at the end would mean to pronouncing it as 'ee' would it not? Like 'forsee'
Er... well I get rather confused when trying to explain sounds in English. But ë is pronounced like the two e's in Celeborn. If the elves wanted the "forsee" sound, I assume they would use í (long i).

If you listen to Galadriel in the movie when she says Namárië. That's the correct way. Smile Smilie
so, Amarie, this is what you had been planning for so long?
So it is what I read before I posted. The breath 'eh' is how to pronounce ë at the end.

I found an audio file which is of Tolkien reciting the poem Namárië, which starts with Ai! Laurië, and at the beginning he pronounces it as, 'eye l-ow-ree-eh', so that is the proper way to say it if Tolkien spoke it that way himself Wiggle Smilie
Christopher Tolkien probably wants to help keep -e- from becoming schwa in the middle of certain words.

CJRT was very concerned with proper pronunciation, and purposely changed correct Narn i·Chîn Húrin to Narn i·hîn Húrin, for example, because he did not want people using the -ch- sound of English church.
your right loss.when we say Amarië.... ë = ...eh(we say it with the breath)" Amarië "we have to say as Amari-e-.
Im finding the pronouncation of Quenya very easy since it is largely pronounced as finnish is Smile Smilie
Quote:
so, Amarie, this is what you had been planning for so long?

This thread wasn't planned at all. Big Smile Smilie
So no, this is not what we have been planning for so long. But we do expect it will fuel many good discussions. Orc Grinning Smilie

Quote:
Im finding the pronouncation of Quenya very easy since it is largely pronounced as finnish is

Yes, it is very close to Norwegian too. Add a few German sounds like ch in 'ich' and your basicly there. Big Smile Smilie We are quite lucky that way, you and I. We don't have to wonder how to say "E" do we? Wink Smilie

  *coughs*

  i think elvish is epic and i don't  now why the elves didn't rule over all the over creatures

[link's aren't allowed, please read the website Rules, thank you]

I finally purchased a later edition Silmarillion, but the second a in Amarie is still short there.

The edition reproduces a text from 1999. It's later than 1977 anyway Smile Smilie