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Gandalf85 began this thread with the following post

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Hello everybody! This is my first post in the forum, so I would like to ask a question about a fact that I haven't been able to locate a clear answer in the books...

The question is, if there is any information about tha "Final Battle" in Middle Earth, except for the fact that Morgoth will return and after, the Dwarves will help Aule rebuild the world etc. etc. If I remember ok, there are some comments concerning the fate of Men, Elves, and the others, after the Final Battle?

I'm looking forward to your responses! And please forgive me for any mistakes, as it's been some time since I last practiced my english!!


Aule replied

Welcome to Planet-Tolkien Gandalf85!
I hope you will enjoy this site as much as I am!

Concerning your question I only know that the dwarves are going to help Aulë(me Big Smile Smilie ) rebuild Arda......I do not know anymore about this topic......If I were you I would ask Val or Grondy because(in my opinion) they are the wisest here about M-E!

Welcome to pt, Gandalf85. Big Smile Smilie I don't know if this is what you're looking for, but I'll have a go. This is about all I know on the matter:

There will be a final battle, in which, being the Children of Illuvatar, Elves and Men are destined to fight. Dwarves really have to as well, come to think of it. The Valar will intervene as well; they must if Illuvatars eventual perfect vision of Arda is to be fulfilled. After the battle, Aulë, Yavanna and the Dwarves (probably Elves and Men too) will restore the world to its former glory. After that will come the Second Music, elevating Arda to an unparallelled level of bliss, in which Men will participate, but Elves might not, as they will all have left Middle Earth fo Aman by that time (Aman no longer being on Arda). The role of the dwarves, not being of Illuvatar, is also uncertain.

I hope that's all correct, and that it all makes sense. Anyone want to add to it?
Yes I would like to add something Peredhil.....where does this say?
Some of it's in the Sil, the rest I got from Val, so it can't be wrong. Cool Smilie
Alright....but where from the Sil?
I haven´t seen it.....
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Some of it's in the Sil, the rest I got from Val, so it can't be wrong. Cool Smilie

Shut up you knee-bone, Morgoth will go for you if you dont leave Ungoliant alone Big Laugh Smilie

Moderator Smilie (Grondy says keep your language clean, non-confrontational, and meaninful please!) Moderator Smilie

[Edited on 14/3/2003 by Grondmaster]
Morgiliath what´s your problem? Why do you say that?
Yes Perwing I see what you mean but you haven´t read his/her other post....And I wasn´t implying that he/she was being rude but more that he/she was using foul language which isn´t allowed here at P-T!
Welcome to our forum Gandalf85. Happy Elf Smilie

I am not an expert on the Silmarillion, Valedhelgwath is the one who may be able to cite chapter and verse on the events leading up to the second music.

You also might look in the first couple of Assignments of our Reading Discussion Groups threads where Val has been leading our members through the Silmarillion; however, it may be from one of the twelve volumes of History of Middle-earth.




I thought you were ALMOST as wise as Val about the Sil but you say I am wrong....okay.....I still hold some people here in higher reverence than others.....
Moderator Smilie Okay guys, count to ten and let it pass; else stand back-to-back, take ten paces forward, turn and open the nozzel on your firehose. Either way cool down. It isn't worth arguing about. Moderator Smilie
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The question is, if there is any information about tha "Final Battle" in Middle Earth, except for the fact that Morgoth will return and after, the Dwarves will help Aule rebuild the world etc. etc. If I remember ok, there are some comments concerning the fate of Men, Elves, and the others, after the Final Battle?
Okay, firstly, welcome to Planet Tolkien Gandalf85, even if your first post has had me searching for answers Smile Smilie

The Last Battle itself is refered to in the Second Prophesy of Mandos and will be called the Dagor Dagorath (The Battle of Battles). It will be fought not in Middle Earth, but on the Plains of Valinor. Melkor will return to make one last battle with the Valar, and all of the Free Peoples shall take part. Manwe will himself descend from Taniquetil to make war, but in this battle it will be Turin Tarumbar who shall eventually deal the death blow to Melkor, thus dispelling evil forever.

The end of this battle will then mark the End. Ea shall be healed of its wounds, with the help of the dwarves, and shall finally reach the image of perfection that Eru originally envisaged. What happens then is a little unclear

The Ainur shall sing the Second Great Music and in this Men shall take part (the Gift of Men). Tolkien was, however, very vague about what role Elves, Dwarves and even Ea would play in this music.

My own interpretation of it (and I stress it is only my interpretation) is that this is the Gift of Man, and the theme of the Second Music is Heaven. I get the impression that once Ea fulfills its destiny of reaching perfection, it then ceases to be (hence the End) along with the Elves, who are part of the fate of Ea. Hence the two Childrens of Iluvatar share totally different lives and fates. The elves enjoy disease free immortality in Ea until the end of time (The End), kind of like Heaven on Earth (particularly for those who lived in Valinor). Man, on the other hand, is frail and sickly, has a very short life span on Ea, but his fate is not tied to Ea. Once the End occurs, his spirit is released from the Halls of Mandos, and he gets to dwell with Eru and the Ainur in Heaven.

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Some of it's in the Sil, the rest I got from Val, so it can't be wrong
I wouldn't bank on that one. I'm as fallible as the next person. It's just probably more fun finding faults in what I post Big Smile Smilie
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I know Grondy, and I'm done!! (1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10, ok I'm good Wink Smilie)

Sorry Aule, let's just shake hands and be friends!! Wiggle Smilie


Sure! No hard feelings?
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Man, on the other hand, is frail and sickly, has a very short life span on Ea, but his fate is not tied to Ea. Once the End occurs, his spirit is released from the Halls of Mandos, and he gets to dwell with Eru and the Ainur in Heaven.
Wow. I never thought of it like that. Your interpretation seems right to me. One more thing:
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but in this battle it will be Turin Tarumbar who shall eventually deal the death blow to Melkor, thus dispelling evil forever.
Where from you get that? And does Melkor know? And does it mean that all men will be resurrected, and that when they go to heaven with Eru and the Ainur, they will be immortal?

[Edited on 15/3/2003 by Peredhil]
I wonder that to Peredhil!
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One more thing:
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but in this battle it will be Turin Tarumbar who shall eventually deal the death blow to Melkor, thus dispelling evil forever.

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Where from you get that? And does Melkor know? And does it mean that all men will be resurrected, and that when they go to heaven with Eru and the Ainur, they will be immortal?
But you said, "just one more thing." Smile Smilie

Briefly,
1) It's mentioned in HOME, Morgoth's Ring, I think. Someone else has several of my HOME books at the moment so I cannot check or give you a quote. Plastic or Ross may be able to help you with that one.

2) I'm not sure whether Melkor knows this. Mandos knows so much because one of his gifts seems to be memory of the entire First Great Music, and hence foresight into everything that is going to happen.

3) I believe it is Eru's Gift that all Men shall be resurrected. There is a passage in Akallabeth that says,
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But Ar-Pharazon the King and the mortal warriors that had set foot on the land of Aman were buried under falling hills: there it is said that they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom.
If Ar-Pharazon and his men who attempted to assail the Valar can be released for this battle, I assume all men are. I'm not sure what the fate of those who become undead, like the Ringwraiths is though. I've a feeling their fate will be to wander in misery until the End, without release of death, and then they too will join with the other Men. The reason I assume this is because I don't think Sauron had the power to take the Gift of Man away from any of them.

4) Personally, I think yes, once Men get to sing the Second Great Music, they will be immortal. The Second Music was said to be greater than the First. In this I see it as being totally permanent (just like the Christian Heaven).
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Man, on the other hand, is frail and sickly, has a very short life span on Ea, but his fate is not tied to Ea. Once the End occurs, his spirit is released from the Halls of Mandos, and he gets to dwell with Eru and the Ainur in Heaven.

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but in this battle it will be Turin Tarumbar who shall eventually deal the death blow to Melkor, thus dispelling evil forever.


Where in Morgoths Ring does this say? I just bought it so I would like to know where it is said.....
Val, you should submit that for an honorary doctoral thesis or something! That's a heck of an interpretation and I think it's awesome, awe inspiring, and awe shucks that I haven't read HOME and came to that conclusion myself first! I'm so jealous...
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Where in Morgoths Ring does this say? I just bought it so I would like to know where it is said.....
Okay, Aule... I hope you didn't buy the book just for this one piece because you might be a little disappointed... On page 76, notes 34-36 there is a reference to one of Tolkien's manuscripts, the Quenta Noldorinwa written in 1930. Part of the text is...
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There is here the remarkable statement that Menelmakar (Orion) was "a sign of Turin Turambar, who should come into the world, and a foreshowing of the Last Battle that shall be at the end of days." This is a reference to the Second Prophesy of Mandos (in the Quenta IV.165):

Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day, Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe (Eonwë), and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate, coming from the halls of Mandos; and it shall be the Black Sword of Turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.
I don't have access to the Quenta Noldorinwa to find the original from which it was taken, but I found what I believe to be the text, or a representation of it, on the Annals of Arda website (there's a link to this site in our web links)

From Annals of Arda
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Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor and the rumour of his word was whispered among all the Elves of the West.

"When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of the Night out of the timeless void ; and he shall destroy the Sun and the Moon.

But Earendil shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day, Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Eonwë, and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the Black Sword of Turin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.

Thereafter shall Earth be broken and remade, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Earendil shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Fëanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Palurien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the light shall go out over all the world. In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Iluvatar be fulfilled concerning them.

But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Turin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.


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Val, you should submit that for an honorary doctoral thesis or something! That's a heck of an interpretation and I think it's awesome, awe inspiring, and awe shucks that I haven't read HOME and came to that conclusion myself first! I'm so jealous...
Cheers Uruk... I've only just recently began studying HOME myself (I say studying because I don't think I'll ever be able to sit down and read them as anything other than textbooks). Now that I've began delving into them, though, they make me realise just how much Tolkien actually wrote, and just how little I really know.

No I just wanted the HOME series.....but they had only Morgoths Ring at that store so I bought it....I am going to get the other ones to...don´t you worry!Smoke Smilie
Again, another WOW to all of you who have conquered the realm of HOME. I think you're right Val, it'd be something i'd study, not read. UT was fairly dry but flipping through HOME, it looks like it's parched dry!
I wouldn't say so. I'm near the end of the Book of Lost Tales 1 now, and it's one of the most engaging books I have ever read. I can't say about the others though.
I'm finding Morgoth's Ring a better read than I did any of the others so far.
I like UT!! I know it´s not part of the HOME series but I really find it great!! And Morgoths Ring I bet is almost the same...I haven´t read it yet so I can´t say for sure but i trust Val´s judgement......But The Complete Tolkien Companion is something you have to look up stuff....right?
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But The Complete Tolkien Companion is something you have to look up stuff....right?
Yes, it's like an encyclopedia of Tolkien's world. I used to use Foster's Complete Guide to Middle Earth, but recently have began using the Complete Tolkien Companion more often. Foster's guide is limited to the Hobbit, LotR and the Simarillion, whereas the Complete Tolkien Companion by Tyler draws information from UT and some of HOME too.
Hey there, I've read Silmarillion three times, on my fourth now, and Unfinished Tales twice. I am also working my way throught HOME, but only got to Book 1 so far. At the same time I have begun to think a lot about the Last Battle and how it might come to be through our own time, they are just thoughts at the moment but in doing this I have been wondering if there is anywhere I can find out the names of the other 6 Dwarf Fathers? Durin was the greatest and most renown as we are told, but I cannot think where to look for the names of the other 6, if they were ever written by Tolkien, any help would be much appreciated.
Well, I dunno about the seven fathers... I'm sure if you asked me a few months ago, I would've, though. I'm kind of slacking. Just recently had another obsession dominating my life. (It was a healthy obsession, honest, I'm not dodgy!!) But just recently at Easter Camp I decided that all obsessions are bad. So I've been dropping it. But that means Tolkien as well. But that's OKAY... I can handle that.
I've read the Silm five times, the UT twice, and I was trying to get into the HOME Book 1... but schoolwork got on top of it all, and I haven't gone back to it since... you see, my brother just transferred a whole load of his bookcase to my room. And I've just been looking at the books!! They're all so... old. I LOVE that. Like, there's an original edition of that La Morte d' Arthur book thing. And it's REALLY old. And there's this really really really old book of essays on human nature and god and that. And they're So OLD. Like, they're gilded, and that. Well, that's just the oldest few. But the rest are the quaint old schoolboy books... I LOVE them. So I'm kind of reading those. Meanwhile, I actually don't feel the need to read a book at the moment, which is weird. I used to be a huge reader, but now... I don't read. I THINK. I feel like Bilbo. I couldn't contemplate writing poetry and THINKING all the time. To me, it was boring. But now, I THINK and daydream a whole lot in my free time.
And I'll stop rambling. I can't believe I just rambled all that.
Well as u probably know, Durin was reincarnated 6 times, me being the last. It could be the otheer Durins as the dwarf fathers, but I've never read HOME. I once wanted to buy a volume as a student, but as that was over a weeks food bill, and I've never got round to getting them.

Just a question. If Fingolfin could only wound Morgoth, why could Turin kill him?
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If Fingolfin could only wound Morgoth, why could Turin kill him?

Because he'd get assistance from both Tulkas (!) and Eönwë, I believe.

Seems they'd kinda hold Old Grumpy steady so that Turin could deliver the death blow.
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Seems they'd kinda hold Old Grumpy steady so that Turin could deliver the death blow.

Thank you.
Having read the Silmarillion a long time ago, could you tell me why Turin is so important in the long run
I don't think he's 'important'... with Tulkas and Eönwë around, even my grandmother would be able to finish off Old Grumpy.

I think Turin got the 'honour' of slaying O.G. because of all the harm that was done by O.G. to himself and his family.

It would be more thrilling if Fëanor would do it.
maybe so, but i like Túrin (obviously) and i think he deservers it just as much as Feanor does.

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Having read the Silmarillion a long time ago, could you tell me why Turin is so important in the long run


Túrin slayed Glaurung, which was no easy feat! It's quite easy to see by Túrin's actions and accomplishments in his life he was one of the greatest warriors of men through out all of the history Middle-Earth. The only thing that could kill Túrin was..... Túrin.
Here follows my account of the Great End:

It happens at around the 9th Age of th World or more (for the 6th was supposed to have ended with the second World War).
The Valar at last are growing weary with the World, as are the Eldar that dwell with them. Melkor who has been brooding for many thousands of years in the Outer Dark now see's his chance to return.
In Tolkien's earliest concepts of this battle Melko contrives a quarrel between the Sun and Moon (both are Maiar spirits) and both are destroyed.
Sauron also returns and there is some obscure quote somewhere I remember about some servant of Darkness gnawing his bonds free (I believe I have listed it below).
Melko with the greatest host ever assembled arrives on the plains of Valinor and then Manwe descneds from his lofty throne and orders the great Battle and the final End.
In this battle Sauron is slain by Olorin/Gandalf, whilst Eonwe and Tulkas duel with Melkor but by the hand of Turin Turambar, the only Man ressurected from the Dead, is Melkor dealt his death blow and the House of Hurin is avenged.
In this battle also Ar-pharazon, last king of Numenor and his great host which were imprisoned countless years before in the Caves of the Forgotten are set free and fight (but for which side I cannot remember.

Thus Melkor and his servant Sauron are finally laid impotent and banished back to Eru to receive there due fate.
However becuase Melkor poured so much of his power into Arda itself (as did Sauron in his Ring), Arda had to be broken in order for Melkor to be destroyed.
Thus is what came to pass and the re-making of the World was done by the Aule and the Dwarves, and thus the Second Arda appears in which only Men participate with the Ainur in the Second Great Music. Of the fate of Elves Iluvatar has not declared.

Also in an early concept of this battle Melkor is slayed not by Turin, but by Fionwe:

"Fionwe's rage and grief. In the end he will slay Melko. 'Orion' is only the image of Telimektar in the sky? [sic] Varda gave him stars, and he bears them aloft that the Gods may know he watches; he has diamonds on his sword-sheath, and this will go red when he draws his sword at the Great End."

The Last Battle is portended by Menelmaca, a Star group made by Varda to signal the fall of Morgoth.

Also after the Battle Feanor is allowed finally to be brought back as the Silmarils are recovered from Air, Water and Fire. Here Feanor finally consents to brake them open so Yavanna can kindle the Two trees once again. The Pelori mountains are levelled so that their light can flow thence out over all the world even unto the furthest East.

Quotes about the Dagor Dagorath and the Second Arda:

"After the triumph of the Gods, Earendel sailed still in the seas of heaven, but the Sun scorched him and the Moon hunted him in the sky . . . Then the Valar drew his white ship Wingelot over the land of Valinor, and they filled it with radiance and hallowed it, and launched it through the Door of Night. And long Earendel set sail into the starless vast, Elwing at his side, the Silmaril upon his brow, voyaging the Dark behind the world, a glimmering and fugitive star. And ever and anon he returns and shines behind the courses of the Sun and Moon above the ramparts of the Gods, brighter than all other stars, the mariner of the sky, keeping watch against Morgoth upon the confines of the world. Thus shall he sail until he sees the Last Battle fought upon the plains of Valinor.

"Thus spake the prophecy of Mandos, which he declared in Valmar at the judgement of the Gods, and the rumour of it was whispered among all the Elves of the West: when the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth shall come back through the Door out of the Timeless Night; and he shall destroy the Sun and the Moon, but Earendel shall come upon him as a white flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate; and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the Children of Hurin and all men be avenged.

"Thereafter shall the Silmarils be recovered out of sea and earth and air; for Earendil shall descend and yield up that flame that he hath had in keeping. Then Feanor shall bear the Three and yield their fire to rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth; and the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the light goes out over all the world. In that light the Gods will again grow young, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Iluvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy speaks not, save of Turin only, and him it names among the Gods."

"But Ar-Pharazôn the King and the mortal warriors that had set foot upon the land of Aman were buried under falling hills: there it is said that they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom."

"For they say that Aulë the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to their Fathers of old that Ilúvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aulë and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle."

"Carnil and Luinil, Nénar and Lumbar, Alcarinquë and Elemmírë she wrought in that time, and many other of the ancient stars she gathered together and set as signs in the heavens of Arda: Wilwarin, Telumendil, Soronúmë, and Anarríma; and Menelmacar with his shining belt, that forebodes the Last Battle that shall be at the end of days. And high in the north as a challenge to Melkor she set the crown of seven mighty stars to swing, Valacirca, the Sickle of the Valar and sign of doom."

"Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Ilúvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased."

"For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

"Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it."

"But I think it was not so. Manwë will not descend from the Mountain until Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns. 8 To the overthrow of Morgoth he sent his herald Eönwë. To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coëval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Olórin was his name. But of Olórin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf."

"Melko again breaks away, by the aid of Tevildo (who in long ages gnaws his bonds); the Gods are in dissension about Men and Elves, some favouring the one and some the other."(???)

"But they were still living on the borders of myth – or rather this story exhibits 'myth' passing into History or the Dominion of Men; for of course the Shadow will arise again in a sense (as is clearly foretold by Gandalf), but never again (unless it be before the great End) will an evil daemon be incarnate as a physical enemy...."

"Then ride they with him in chariots or upon good horses down into the vale of Valinor and feast in the halls of Valmar, dwelling in the houses of the Gods until the Great End come."

"Melko assembled all his most cunning smiths and sorcerers, and of iron and flame they wrought a host of monsters such as have only at that time been seen and shall not again be till the Great End."

"Melko is thus now out of the world -- but one day he will find a way back, and the last great uproars will begin before the Great End."

"Gilfanon also prophesies concerning the Great End, and of the Wrack of Things, and of Fionwe,
Tulkas, and Melko and the last fight on the Plains of Valinor. Eriol ends his life at Tavrobel but in his last days is consumed with longing for the black cliffs of his shores, even as Meril said."

"This they will only do with the help of Men. If Men aid them, the fairies will take Men to Valinor -- those that wish to go -- fight a great battle with Melko in Erumani and open Valinor.~ Laurelin and Silpion will be rekindled, and the mountain wall being destroyed then soft radiance will spread over all the world, and the Sun and Moon will be recalled. If Men oppose them and aid Melko the Wrack of the Gods and the ending of the fairies will result -- and maybe the Great End."


Quotes taken from Unfinished Tales, The Silmarillion, HOME and Letters.

As you can see many of the quotes refer to things of early concept. For instance the naming of the Two Trees as Laurelin and Silpion as opposed to Laurelin and Telperion. Also the naming of Earendil as 'Earendel'. This is indeed a very early concept.

This is my account o the Last Battle and the Day of Doom, the Dagor Dagorath, the Great End and the Second World.
As it hasn't yet happened, I'll just keep my lamps filled and my wicks trimmed and try to get on with life day by day. This instead of trying to use some elderly text towards fathoming what Tolkien may or may not have meant to happen, but never got around to bringing that story up to his current thinking.
Interesting post Lord Of All
Yes, very interesting post!

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Also in an early concept of this battle Melkor is slayed not by Turin, but by Fionwe:


That's one reason why I chose that name. Hmmm, I get to slay Melkor...
DID get to slay Melkor... Big Smile Smilie
ha ha ha change tour name to Turin Fionwe
Hey now don't steal my thunder! As Tolkien's latest drafts ever described the last battle Túrin gets the glory for slaying Morgoth!
There is never any glory in killing, not even when one kills the epitome of evil.

It is not even really 'killing', for only Morgoth's body would be destroyed. No one can 'kill' his spirit, safe the One.

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As it hasn't yet happened, I'll just keep my lamps filled and my wicks trimmed and try to get on with life day by day. This instead of trying to use some elderly text towards fathoming what Tolkien may or may not have meant to happen, but never got around to bringing that story up to his current thinking.

Amen to that.
Indeed Virumor. I agree partly on that.

In Tolkien's eyes however death is simply the seperation from Hroar from Fea (Body from Spirit).

However I cannot see how this works with an Ainur. As they originate from outside Ea I doubt that they come into this. Otherwise whenver one of the Valar were not 'In there phisical forms' they would be dead.

So I suppose that Tolkien said this only for meaning with the Children of Ea and anything that originates from inside Arda itself.
Lord of all,
that was a very absorbing post. wow.
I was always taught as a child to keep my lamp trimmed and burning. For a long while nothing much happened except that I was running out of money!

The thing with trying to figure out what another might or might not have written is that each of us, at least I believe so, has that secret person deep inside that is slightly or , in the case of an axe murderer Smile Smilie quite different from the person we let the world see. And that sometimes include the deepest thoughts and desires. So for instance, if a certain concept is really pooh poohed as too wierd and such the way that Tolkien's works seemed to be by his fellows at University for some time, then maybe one would not be inclined to write the full depths or just a certain way thinking it would not be accepted into print.
But all the same, in my little journal I like to wonder what if this and what if that and just write it down. It is only pretend after all and is just as interesting to think about as the bread you will make in half an h our.
I think that the eigth age will probably happen when World War III ends or a loss of land like all the other ages apart from the Years of the lamps and The trees. And Probably the ninth age will happen after world war IV ends or a loss of something. I wouldn't be alive by then. I hope that the race of Men could reincarnate but for this to be we have to forget our past lives. Maybe I could see the Last Battle.......
Shall I say, if Men are going with Iluvatar after the End, their fate is somehow better than the Elves' since they can live and die but finally be immortal with Eru?
If all beings become immortal after the Final Battle when evil is ended by the hands of Men, what will the Earth be like? I am confused...
It might be added that the Second Prophecy of Mandos was seemingly dropped by JRRT according to Christopher...

'Here ends the Silmarillion. If it has passed from the high and the beautiful to sadness and ruin, that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwë and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos.' Silmarillion, constructed version, 1977

... it is not declared in the Dooms of Mandos. Source, the Valaquenta by JRRT...

'Here ends The Valaquenta. If it has passed from the high and beautiful to darkness and ruin, that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwë and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos.' JRRT

Commentary: 'The Second Prophecy of Mandos (V.333) had now therefore definitively disappeared. This passage was used to form a conclusion to the published Silmarillion (p. 255).' Christopher Tolkien

Yet see the cursory changes made to the Later Quenta Silmarillion, and the commentary regarding those changes, in The War of the Jewels.
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If all beings become immortal after the Final Battle when evil is ended by the hands of Men, what will the Earth be like? I am confused...
I'm not sure, but I think I read somewhere in the forum that Arda (the Earth) is destroyed, as are the Elves their being tied to it, while the spirits of Men will then reside with Iluvatar.

Of course this maybe too simplified or even wrong, but it's my current understanding of this unalterable concept.
There's the Second Music of the Ainur after the Final Battle, without a spoilsport ruining it all.

Or perchance then there shall be a new spoilsport.
I posted this in another thread, about the fate of Elves and Arda...

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This would not be much of a gift if the elves were Gifted with immortality and still allowed to take part in the Second music. The way I interpret this is that the Elves, who are tied to the fate of Ea, live and die as part of Ea, so that when the End comes, it is the end of the Elves too.


I have encountered this before but must disagree. Part of the gift (considered a gift by Elves) is the release from the World compared to the life of the long-lived (a very long life indeed in theory, as it extends to the End of the World), which can become a burden in ways. It has no necessary connection to annihilation at the ultimate death of Elves however.

I can't agree with the idea of a nihilistic fate of the Elves (the ultimate annihilation of even the spirits of Elves) especially as theoried to proceed from the Christian Tolkien. The Elves are Children of God and indeed we find traditions concerning them after the Great End, concering their participation within New Arda (see Morgoth's Ring). For example...

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Laws And Customs Of The Eldar Notes, note iii: 'Fate of 'Immortal' Elves: ? to inhabit New Arda (or Arda Healed). Probably not, in a physical sense. (...) But New Arda or Arda Unmarred (Healed) would imply a continuance, beyond the End (or Completion). Of that nothing can be surmised. Unless it be this. Since the Elves (and Men) were made for Arda, the satisfaction of their nature will require Arda (without the malice of the Marrer): therefore before the Ending the Marring will be wholly undone or healed (or absorbed into good, beauty, and joy). In that region of Time and Place the Elves will dwell as their home, but not be confined to it. (...) ' JRRT


Tolkien goes on to speak of another possibility, a New Arda 'rebuilt from the beginning without Malice' in which the Elves will take part.

JRRT also goes into this in the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth and notes that both absolute annihilation and cessation of conscious identity were wholly repugnant to Elvish thought and desire, and the Elves were ultimately obliged to rest on naked estel, trusting in Eru 'that whatever He designed beyond the End would be recognized by each fea as wholly satisfying (at the least).'

Finrod describes his vision of Arda remade with the Eldar completed but not ended, abiding in the present forever, '... and there walk, maybe, with the Children of Men, their deliverers'

Deliverers in what sense? Tolkien also wrote that the Elves '... still believe that Eru's healing of all the griefs of Arda will come now by or through Men; but the Elve's part in the healing or restoration of the love of Arda, to which their memory of the Past and understanding of what might have been will contribute. Arda they say, will be destroyed by Wicked Men (or the wickedness in Men); but healed through the goodness in Men. The wickedness, the domineering lovelessness, the Elves will offset (...).'

Of course Tolkien himself did not publish this (nor his ultimate Silmarillion of course). Anyway, it is stated that the Valar say Men shall join in the Second Music, but Manwe alone knows what God has purposed for the Elves after the End (not that there is no purpose, but it is not stated), and that Men indeed die and leave 'that which they have made or marred'. In the constructed Silmarillion there is also a passage stating that the Valar have not seen with sight concerning the End.

An interesting part of a letter concering Elves and Men and ultimate destiny...

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'It is in any case neither side was fully informed about the ultimate destiny of the other (...) But what the 'end of the world' portended for it or for themselves they did not know (though they no doubt had theories). Neither had they, of course any special information concerning what 'Death' portended for Men. They believed that it meant 'liberation from the Circles of the world', and was in that respect to them enviable. And they would point out to Men who envied them that a dread of ultimate loss, though it may be indefinitely remote, is not necessarily the easier to bear if it is in the end ineluctably certain: a burden may become heavier the longer it is born.' JRRT 1963 Letters


Note the 'dread of ultimate loss' exists for both the Children. Both need estel, both need to trust in Eru regarding life after death (in the case of the Elves, 'death' at the World's End here).
I do not think Elves, in fact its about 99.999% that Elves would not receive a brutal fate after the Re-making of Arda in the New Days.

"Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Ilúvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased."

It is clear that after the destruction of Arda and its New beginning every being will become 'fully enlightened' and know the part of himself and of every other being.
It is probable therefore that this 'New World' would be like a Paradise and Iluvatar would become involved in its working as well as opposed to letting it play out like he mostly did with the previous Arda.

And there would be no other 'spoilsport'. With the destruction of Melkor evil has been wiped out and the whole point is that it will never rise again.
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And there would be no other 'spoilsport'. With the destruction of Melkor evil has been wiped out and the whole point is that it will never rise again.
In other words it will be quite boring for any still wishing to exert their free will; so hopefully we will all have gotten tired of that and fallen into lock-step with the will of the creator. Angel Smilie
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