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Thread: Sauron

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Would he have found another willing subject - I bet he would have - he had a host orcs he could have corrupted - does that seem plausible?
Evil always finds a way.
True. If it hadn't been Sauron, there would have been someone else. Morgoth had several maias working for him, not just Sauron and the balrogs.
It could have been worse.... At one stage Morgoth corrupted Osse away from Ulmo's command. His spouse, Uinen, managed to turn him back, but if Melkor had tried a bit harder He'd probably had the waves under his command. This would have stopped Elven and Numenorian ships from sailing at will.
I'm pretty sure Ulmo would've stopped OssŽ if necessary. After all, Ulmo hardly ever left his dominion.
Amarie - just a nitpick. It's "several maiar" not "several maias." (Sorry, I'm a perfectionist speller, even ask my friends).

And no doubt Morgoth would find someboy else. But what would've happened to Sauron himself? That's an even MORE complicated question. You would have to have SOME sort of bad nature to be converted by Morgoth so quickly. So would his evil nature have found another outlet?
Me thinks what would have happened is that we'd all be bored stiff with nothing to read, or discuss about Middle-earth; and certainly we wouldn't have become infatuated with hobbits. Elk Grinning Smilie
Grondmaster you dont know sqat sauron is cooler than a hobbit but if you want to talk about it e-mail me
Where did you all go. Check out my new post
You probably scared us away by telling us we know squat Shaking Head Smilie

Generally around here, when we disagree with what someone else has said, we point out the fault and argue our case with constructive critisism. Just telling someone they know squat is hardly helpful.
OOOH!!!!! Moderator!!!! (Sorry... can't help myself.) Yeah, I was being moderated in my first weeks all the time. Lalan. I laugh.

No, no, hobbits are better than Sauron. Cause they're funny!!! And cute. And they have furry toes. Who can't love little yay-high fatties with furry toes? Coochie coochie coo...
But DWARVES are the best. They're rich. And cool. And they swing axes around.
BUT... who's noticed I've moved location? I'm an Orc from Isengard. Because I felt they just DON'T have a high enough population. But I still have thousands of mithril pieces. So it's only temporary. I'll just move around for a while for fun. Then I'll be a dwarf again on my last 400 pieces. Then I"ll save up again. FUN!!!!
So I'm Loni the Orc this week. Remember that.
1. Sauron would have a home run contest with those little hair-balls Loni.
2. The thread was about if Sauron staying good duh........
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1. Sauron would have a home run contest with those little hair-balls Loni.

Yes, and as we all know, the "little hair-balls" beats him. You do know this? Sauron looses.
(No points to those who can name another trillogy where little hair-balls play a big part in bringing down the big bad man. Wink Smilie )

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2. The thread was about if Sauron staying good duh........

You seem to have missed what Val said about constuctive critisism...
Sauron007 Posted Wednesday 6th April 2005 in "Which one"
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Who would win Morgoth in the middle of the first age(his strongest point) or Sauron in the central part of the second age(his strongest point)


Lord_aragorn86 Posted Wednesday 6th April 2005
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Morgoth obviously! He's a Vala for Eru's sake! Sauron will have as much chance as a blind man trying to catch a wild cat in the dark.


AmariŽ Posted Wednesday 6th April 2005
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Maybe with Morgoth at his weakest and lowest, Sauron would have a teeny weeny chance. But now way could a Maia ever beat a Vala at full power.


And then AmariŽ moved the discussion here. Smile Smilie
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Maybe with Morgoth at his weakest and lowest, Sauron would have a teeny weeny chance. But now way could a Maia ever beat a Vala at full power.

Morgoth wasn't on full power once he took his "evil king" form and dispersed his power in his minions. After that his power slowly decreased - but of course he was still powerful.

This is the reason why for instance Fingolfin could wound Morgoth. Anyway, in a battle with Sauron (who also dispersed his power) and Morgoth, Morgoth would easily win as Sauron was a crap warrior : remember how he fared in his wrestle with Hķan and in his duel with Elendil and Gil-Galad.

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Sauron will have as much chance as a blind man trying to catch a wild cat in the dark.

He'd have more chance than Fingolfin had.

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Who would win Morgoth in the middle of the first age(his strongest point) or Sauron in the central part of the second age(his strongest point)

Yes, Sauron was so strong in the middle of the second age that his armies got slaughtered by the Numenorans. He was so strong that he had to flee, run for his life and barely made it back to Mordor with only a handful of Orcses... home sweet home!

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Who can't love little yay-high fatties with furry toes?

No wonder you're one of PJ's biggest fans, Loni...
Have you ever looked in the book weapons and warfare it says "There is no weapon stronger or deadlier than the one ring" F.Y.I. sauron had the ring so he would have a pretty good chance against morgoth okay
Ah, but the Weapons and Warfare book isn't partr of Tolkien's canon so we can't trust it. You can't trust ANY movie books these days. But the weapons and warfare is one of the best. (Yeah, I'm one of PJ's greatest fans :funnylaughSmile Smilie

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He'd have more chance than Fingolfin had.


Good point. Fingolfin wounded Morgoth REALLy good. Of course, he lost, but Sauron vs. Morgoth? Of course Morgoth would win, but he would be seriously wounded. Ha, what a good idea. Hey Sauron, Morgoth said you were a....
Good point Loni i'm a big fan of sauron but against a vala he would lose but would wound morgoth
but also remember sauron has the ring so unless it's destroyed he's alive. plus the ring would corrupt morgoth and make sauron his master
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plus the ring would corrupt morgoth and make sauron his master

In Saurons dreams, perhaps... I am sure Morgoth could resist the tricks of his servant. The Ring is a part of Sauron, but it isn't stronger than him. If the 100% healthy and living Sauron couldn't be Morgoths master while Morgoth was around, why would a Ring with a little bit of Sauron succeed now?

And how do you currupt the most evil one of all?
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And how do you currupt the most evil one of all?

Feed him chocolate chip cookies and then tell him that he won't be given any more unless he mends his ways!
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And how do you currupt the most evil one of all?

You can't corrupt him, obviously but that doesn't mean you can't influence him.

Remember what Luthien did to him with her sexy lapdance whilst Beren was hiding under his throne... Morgoth may be a Vala, but lady tricks work on him like on any other man.
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Morgoth may be a Vala, but lady tricks work on him like on any other man.

Yeah! We men can get so easily distracted by the fairer sex. Its quite a pitiable thing for us.
Oh yes - a man admitting we maids of the weaker sex have some power - oohhh I've got to show my hubby this. Wheeeee Na-na-na-na-na Smilie

Sorry got a bit out of hand - calming down now. OK I'm fine now.
Please carry on the the thread.

Good will always win over evil - look at Darth Vader ( but I suppose he still had some love deep down, coz he changed back) Love wins the day In Love Smilie



Yes how lovely.....
But i agree. And i really had a laugh reading the posts in this thread. Elf With a Big Grin Smilie Sauron007, you are such a aggresive fellow. But i understand you. You really like Sauron. But he is a maiar, and a servant to Melkor. Even if he would ever dare to raise his hand against Morgoth, he couldnt acomplish nothing special (he maybe would wound him, like Fingolfin, but Morgoth is a Vala after all so...).
And i really like the part when Amarie reminded Sauron007 that it was a tiny weeny little hairy toed hobbit that destroyed the terrible Sauron in the very end. Sauron making the one ring.....that might have been creating a epic weapon of legendary power, but it was also his downfall. To put all his strenght in one little ring was a great risk, and he obviusly mistaked himself when he thought he could keep it for himself, out of the enemy's hands.
I hope Sauron Bond's thirst for knowledge has been quenched.

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To put all his strenght in one little ring was a great risk.

Me thinks Sauron just wanted to prove a literal meaning to the phrase "making the world dance on a finger."
Yes, i belive Bond's thirst is quenched for now. But he'll be back with some new corny phrase. Im just joking Sauron007! Elf With a Big Grin Smilie Come on. Give us something else to think about.
In the films if they did cast an actor for the role of Sauron - who do you think it would be??

I know he didn't get to have a bodily form - but what would he look like if he did ?????

Who Who Who??? I'm going to have a think - Will be back later


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I know he didn't get to have a bodily form - but what would he look like if he did ?????

Yes he had. I suggest reading the "What is Sauron?" thread under characters.

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In the films if they did cast an actor for the role of Sauron - who do you think it would be??

They did cast one. It was an extremely muscled man with a weird name, which i forgot.
Forgot????!!?!? Shocked Smilie

Who are you and why are you using Virumor's user account??
But Grevvie, not ALL of us know every single actor and actress' name on LOTR. I know all the MAIN ones. But Sauron?
Who would memorise the name of Sauron's actor? HMMMM... Grevie, of course.

I can call you Grevvie?
Fine Greven : it was Sala Baker. Happy now ? (:-P
Hehe! Wrong Loni! I don't know the name of any of them, except Liv Tyler, and hers only because Vir keeps making puns on her name all the time. Tongue Smilie

The point was that Vir and Val seem to know everything and then some, that is even remotely linked to Tolkien. And look!! He did know, he just tried to decept us!! Wink Smilie

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I can call you Grevvie?

Sure, why not? Reverend Grevvie McBeverage at your service! Smile Smilie
Grevvie about people being decieved you need a Paranoid Smilie next to the statement
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Yes he had. I suggest reading the "What is Sauron?" thread under characters.


I read through but couldn't get the gist of it too many threads going this way and that. I thought that he didn't have enough energy to get his bodily form due to the last defeat.

Please can you tell me a bit about this Virumor - pleeze Angel Smilie
Well, its a debate. Some say that Sauron's spirit took the form of the Eye and perched itself on top of Barad-Dur and had fun dancing in the rain. Others are of the idea (me being one of them), that the Eye was actually the palantir which Sauron possessed and kept looking into it to know what was going on about on the Middle-Earth. And how could Sauron look into the Palantir if he didn't have an eye? And how could Sauron have an eye if he didn't have a body for the eye to be fit into? And therefore, he ought to have had a body though being very, very weak and he thus had to content himself by controlling his forces from within Barad-Dur. Quite like, he was playing some Real-time Strategy game with his army.
All the Valar and Maiar were spirits. They went around singing and seeing and working long before the idea of 'a body' even excisted. While waiting for Erus Children to wake up, they chose to take on a more human shape so they wouldn't scare the elves to death. An example I remember is the maia Arien. When she was assigned to pull the sun across the sky, she changed back to her spirit self and got to work.

I believe the Silmarillion also says that the shapes the Valar took were like clothes are to us. They could chose what shape to wear or not to wear any at all, like we can choose what clothes to wear or not to wear anything at all.

I really need to read the Silmarillion again... And LOTR and the Hobbit..
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I read through but couldn't get the gist of it too many threads going this way and that. I thought that he didn't have enough energy to get his bodily form due to the last defeat.

Please can you tell me a bit about this Virumor - pleeze

Saruman says that Sauron can't yet take on a bodily form in the movies, but there's nothing about that in the books.

To me Sauron had taken on the form of a man of more than mortal stature in LOTR : again see the "what is Sauron?"-thread where i explain why i believe this. I don't wish to repeat myself in here.
What is Sauron? There it is, the thread that Virumor has spoken of late. Click on the link above and you'll be teleported to the forementioned thread.
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I know he didn't get to have a bodily form - but what would he look like if he did ?????


Being pretty new to Tolkien (as I have stated before) it is very easy in thinking of PJ films, when thinking of Sauron as an eye. I have re- read the 'What is Sauron' thread and this has given me loads to think about. One Eye Smilie

Virumor and Elfstone both give good arguments into thier beliefs and they were really getting into the thread!!! Wary Smilie Is this the ring at work I ask myself Very Evil Smilie

Both ideas make sense and Vee and Val's ideas compliments both ideas. Genius Smilie

When reading books people see things in different ways. When one person reads a certain scene, for example, in their minds eye (sorry couldn't resist it) they will see it a certain way, whereas another person will see the scene completly different - that's why human beings are unique. Everyone has a right to their own idea.

Thank you all for replying to this thread - even though I didn't start it.

Anyway to get back to my question - who would have made a good (bad) sauron. Or would no-one be able to fill Sauron's shoes - if he had feet he he he sorry Very Big Grin Smilie
It depends on when you're talking, if you mean if sauron never existed then i have no idea but maybe another of Morgoth's Maiar or something. Possibly a balrog? Maybe Gothmog -the balrog that is - if he hadn't died. But with my limited tolkien knowledge I can't really answer for sure.
The problem with answering this question is that there are reletively few bad guys actually named in the Silmarillion. Apart from Sauron, the only powerful Maiar allies of Melkor appear to be the balrogs, of which Gothmog appears to be the chief. I imagine if he had not been slain by Ecthelion, Gothmog would have been a serious contender for Sauron's crown.

The vampiress, Thuringwethil, was also mentioned in the Silmarillion. Most likely she is a maiar, but as she seems to be just a messenger for Melkor, it is unlikely she could have posed any serious threat to Sauron's position.

Had Melkor not committed the time he spent seducing Sauron, maybe he could have persuaded one of the other "good" Maiar over to his cause. As I mentioned in a previous post, he almost managed this with Osse, so I imagine if Sauron had not existed, Osse would perhaps have been his first choice.
I believe Saruman could be a good surrogate for Sauron. Saruman had a great knowledge about Rings, and as a Maia of AulŽ's would probably be able to make a great Ring himself, so with him in charge of the evil laddies we could get a story close to LOTR.

Gothmog, Balrogs, etc know diddly-squat about making anything.
But surely the White Council would have stopped Saruman if he had corrupted any quicker than he did in LOTR? Maybe not... I don't know...
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But surely the White Council would have stopped Saruman if he had corrupted any quicker than he did in LOTR?

No, as Saruman would've been recruited by Melkor in the very beginning of Arda, just like when he recruited Sauron.
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But surely the White Council would have stopped Saruman if he had corrupted any quicker than he did in LOTR?


Didn't Galadriel distrust Saurman, she wanted Gandalf to be the White Wizard - maybe she knew something!!! Question Smilie
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Didn't Galadriel distrust Saurman, she wanted Gandalf to be the White Wizard - maybe she knew something!!!

It was just because she had a major crush on Gandalf. In Love Smilie

Or maybe when she peered deep into Saruman's heart, she also saw the same darkness she encountered when she peered into FŽanor's heart ?
Nah, she had a crush on Gandalf. And that's why Celeborn isn't in the White Council. To get him out of the way so she could hve a serious flirt after meetings. "Oh, Celeblossom, you see, there were just too few places." "But couldn't you have made it six?" "Well, five is just .. a prime number. And GANDALF SAID White Councils are ALWAYS prime numbers. And GANDALF is SOOO wise." "uh... right."
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And that's why Celeborn isn't in the White Council.

Oh, he is in the White Council alright. Galadriel herself has called him the wisest Elf in Middle-Earth.

It seems i'm spending too much time in this thread.
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It seems i'm spending too much time in this thread.


But think of the people you're helping - those who don't know as much as you.

Thanks for your replies - they do help. Wiggle Smilie
Celeborn is in the White Council? Methinks I need to go and look at the index of the SIlmarillion AGAIN. (The highlight of Loni's life - learning the names of the White Council. SAD. Big Laugh Smilie Very Big Grin Smilie )
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