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What does anyone think of these questions...

1. When where hobbits made? Are they purely children of Illuvatar or were Valar involved?

2. In the second age, when Sauron was taken hostage in Numenor, what did he do with the one ring? If he had it with him then why did the Numenoreans not take it, and how would he have taken the ring with him from the downfall? If he did not have the ring with him, where was it and why did no one else get hold of the ring in that time? Besides, even if Sauron did not have the ring, why did the Numenoreans not command him to get it for them? Did the elves conceal from the Numenoreans why they had been fighting Sauron? If so why (because they feared what Numenoreans would do with the ring)?

3. When Sam and Frodo are in Mordor and Sam wears the ring for a while the presence of a ring bearer does not attract Sauron's attention very much (nor that of any Nazgul). Why not?
1. I cannot answer that, but I am sure that others who have read the parts concerning hobbit history from the appendixes may tell you more.

2. Ar- Pharazon had indeed forced Sauron to submit to his will, but I do not think he was aware that the One Ring was in existence, for only the Elves sensed it, and I do not think they told the Men of Numenor, and even if they did, they would not have told it to Ar-Pharazon the Usurper, who was envious of the Elves' immortality.

3. I have forgotten the detials of the part where (you say) Sam puts on the Ring. I must look through the ROTK again... I don't really recall Sam ever putting on the Ring. I mean, he was wearing it, but did he put it on his finger? I have forgotten...
I agree that the elves did not tell the numenoreans about the rings of power. In that case Sauron hid the one ring. He must have hidden it well. Would it have been safe to have guarded it? Would his servants have been faithful to him while he was apparently defeated?

It seems that there is an unfinished tale in the making here.

After the downfall, the Dunedain found out about the one ring. Interesting to speculate how exactly they learned of it.
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Interesting to speculate how exactly they learned of it.

Maybe they just read the books too.
RE Question 3: Sam donned the One Ring after Frodo was stung and when the Orcs arrived to remove is body to the Tower, so that those Orcs wouldn't see Sam. This was at the end of TTT. I have always assumed the reason Sauron missed Sam's wearing of the Ring on 13-14 March TA 3019 was those dates were also the begining of Mordor's invasion of Gondor and the seige of Minas Tirith, Sauron's Eye and the Nazgul were busy looking beyond Cirith Ungol and watching the preliminaries to the planned big battle unfolding; and in anticipation of the arrival of the Pirates of Umbar. On the 15th was the Battle of Pelennor Fields with the arrival of the Rohirrim, the demise of the Nazgul Lord and Theoden, the arrival of Aragorm's fleet, and Frodo and Sam's escape north from Cirith Ungol. Sauron's eye was just too busy to see innocent Samwise who was using the Ring passively. Anyway in answer to your good question; that's my story and I'm sticking with it. Wiggle Smilie
'The beginning of Hobbits lies far back in the Elder Days that are now lost and forgotten. Only the Elves still preserve any records of that vanished time...' Prologue, Fellowship of the Ring

It's also said that Hobbits lived in Middle-earth for 'many long years' before other folk became even aware of them, and Tolkien eventually relates that in their unrecorded past they must have been a primitive, indeed 'savage' people ('savage' in the original sense). In an 'exterior' source (his letters) Tolkien explains that the Hobbits are meant to be a diminutive branch of the human race.

I say Sauron took the One Ring to Númenor. And I suggest one need not 'boggle' at his spirit taking it back.

Smile Smilie
Perhaps Sauron could transport the ring without a body, but this does not explain why the Numenoreans did not take the ring from him, unless they did not know what it was, meaning the elves did not tell them, meaning they did not trust them. This distrust would have to have gone back to the time of Aldarion.
It seems to me that the acts of Isildur are easier to understand if it was the case that the Dunedain were not aware of the significance of the one ring until right up to the final battle of the last alliance of men and elves. When it was known that Sauron had come to fight in person, Gil-galad may have only had time to briefly counsel Isildur that:
a) Sauron's power depended on his weilding the ring.
b) The ring should be destroyed (in the fires of Mount Doom).

Isildur would have been surprised that this had not been mentioned earlier and so it is easier to understand how he could have doubted the certain necessity of doing (b) for long enough for the ring's power to corrupt him.
In stead of Sauron turning invisible when he wore the Ring, mayhaps the Ring turned invisible when worn on Sauron's body and only became visible when Isuldur accidently lopped off Sauren's finger. Elf Sticking Tounge Out Smilie
The Dunedain must've heard tidings of the evil Ring because the Elves would've told them (they were Elf-friends, remember?)

And thus, Sauron could easily have kept the Ring hidden from Ar-Pharazon if the Ar-Pharazon did not know of it to begin with.
That would seem to make sense, but the elves war with Sauron in the second age was fought (partly at least) over the elves' rings. The question I am asking is, were Aldarion or his close successors told the details of why Sauron had attacked the elves at the time he did and in the places he did? If so, would not knowledge of the existence of the one ring have followed from this? Are you saying that later on the Kings men simply chose to ignore this information or did not understand the significance of the one ring despite the knowldege of its history having been given to their forefathers? If they had known of it at all they would at least have been interested enough in it to demand it from Sauron.

There is the possibility that one of the Kings of Numenor (Such as Tar-Palantir), seeing the shadow falling over his people, made a decision to conceal knowledge of the ring from future generations of kings (but not from the elf-friends).

If this is the case, it does leave Isildur's failure to destroy the ring as an extraordinary event. To think that none of the Dunedain challenged his decision is bizarre, if the understanding of the absolute need to destroy it was not unkown to most or all of them.
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The question I am asking is, were Aldarion or his close successors told the details of why Sauron had attacked the elves at the time he did and in the places he did?


I have no references with me, but I think Celebrimbor hid the Elven Three when he found out about the One Ring, and thus Sauron's wrath was roused against Elves. I do not think the Elves would necessarily tell the Men of the Powerful Rings, for they wanted to keep the Three hidden, didn't they? And they would've feared the corruption of Men's hearts by the One ( though I have no evidence to back this last bit). Thus, I don't think that the Elves told the Men about the Rings (except maybe Elendil and his sons later on). They probably just asked for aid in battle, for Sauron was their common enemy.

And Isidur didn't destroy the Ring when he had it becasue he was corrupted by the Ring, and the Dunedain didn't stop him from keeping it either because they didn;t know of it, or because the Ring simply cast a spell over them all (the Ring plans its every move and moves in its own path remember? Smile Smilie )
Tolkien himself 'guessed' that Ar-Pharazôn did not know anything about the One, adding that the Elves kept the matter of the Rings very secret, 'as long as they could' at least.

If that helps any.
Cloverness, Galin, anyone.

Did Elendil actually have contact with Elves directly? By his time Elves no longer visited Numenor. Presumably Elendil could have met elves in Middle Earth. I cannot remember if Elendil travelled to Middle Earth before the downfall. If he did then this explains how his line only knew what the ring was.

Do you not think that the Elves asking the Numenoreans for help against Sauron but not telling them about the one ring shows either distrust of men or is simply arrogant or possibly the result of shame felt for having been lured into Sauron's schemes?

While the ring is awesomely powerful, how much can it influence those who are not wearing it? Presumably it influenced Boromir to attack Frodo, but is that the same as convincing all the Dunedain who knew of it's evil to accept Isildur's decision to keep it? Remember that Boromir had a very strong wish for a weapon to fight Mordor with, whereas Isildur and the Dunedain considered Sauron defeated.

I still think that few if any Dunedain save Isildur knew hardly anything about the ring (or at least if they did they were not present during or after the battle to intervene), and that is the only way that Isildur's corruption went unchallenged. I don't see the Dunedain (or elf-friends at least) as people who simply accept anything that their king orders, no matter how self destructive.
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Did Elendil actually have contact with Elves directly? By his time Elves no longer visited Numenor. Presumably Elendil could have met elves in Middle Earth. I cannot remember if Elendil travelled to Middle Earth before the downfall. If he did then this explains how his line only knew what the ring was.

Elendil ruled in Arnor in Eriador after the sinking of Númenor.
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I read a while back that Sauron taken his ring with him to Numenor and used it's power to bend the mind of the King, so as to lead the men into war with the Valar, which ended up in the sinking. So even when Sauron is captured, he had a plan to destroy...

But I have no idea if this is true... Any thoughts?
Yes Tolkien noted that Sauron's personal 'surrender' was voluntary and cunning, and he began to dominate the minds and wills of the Númenóreans soon enough (free transport!).
I believe it's mentioned nowhere that Sauron took his Ring to Númenor when 'captured'.
Well, Elessar Lossehelin (no diaeresis) is remembering correctly in that it's mentioned...

... somewhere Smile Smilie
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and the Dunedain didn't stop him from keeping it either because they didn;t know of it, or because the Ring simply cast a spell over them all


I guess this is the former case, then.
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I believe it's mentioned nowhere that Sauron took his Ring to Númenor when 'captured'.
What, he just left it lying around for one of his underlings to find and usurp? And he wasn't really captured; he still retained all his powers: his ability to deceive and appear submissive while keeping the upper hand. He went to Numenor willingly in order to turn them against the Valar; that he went in the guise of a captive doesn't mean he was one; and the Ring went with him; he wouldn't have left it behind, it contained part of his power.
I don't know what Sauron did, that is why I want to see it confirmed black on white that Sauron took the Ring with him to Númenor.

For indeed, when Númenor sank beneath the waves and Sauron's body was destroyed, how did the Ring return to him? It took over two thousand years before Sauron showed himself openly again in physical form.

In this light it's more logical that Sauron stashed it somewhere in his Tower where only he could attain it.

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And he wasn't really captured; he still retained all his powers: his ability to deceive and appear submissive while keeping the upper hand. He went to Numenor willingly in order to turn them against the Valar; that he went in the guise of a captive doesn't mean he was one; and the Ring went with him; he wouldn't have left it behind, it contained part of his power.

That's why I put it between ' '.
It is hard to know exactly what Sauron could have done without a body. It is very clear that without his body he could not stop Isildur picking up the ring. Perhaps Sauron had some power over the waters (never stated anywhere though) or controlled a sea creature that swallowed the ring and returned it to him, or maybe the ring was carried off in a dark cloud?

Any suggestions?
In Letter 211 (regarding the part about Sauron taken to Númenor) JRRT explained: '... he naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans'. (later) 'Though reduced to 'a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended.' letter to Rhona Beare, 1958
That does appear to settle that question.
Thx for the quotes.

That mind picture of black windy Sauron carrying off his Ring to Middle-earth over the waves is hilarious.
I see flying over the waves, a thin black closed vortex circling through the Ring and bearing it back to Midddle-earth.
Really? I see something like a flowing ribbon of black hair (reminds me of Feanor, for some reason) bearing the Ring in its tender locks.
Thanks for the quote, I've been trying to find it for a while and couldn't! He did use it then for influencing the men.

What comes to mind with me is that Sauron eaten some bad eggs thus causing him serious wind problems...
I am sure that after creating such a thing Sauron did not let into the sight of others - nor did he let it off of his person -- and it was never very far from his mind -- It would have been something like oxygen to him, very necessary to all his work and his life (such as it was).

What, if you poured your will and intellect and power into making such a thing, would you go around showing it off and letting others possibly plan to steal it? I think NOT!

And as for Sam.... by that time Sauron had learned to live without the ring near him and, being in a "weakened" state from not having it to channel his work through, he probably needed all his strength to focus on the multiple wars he was waging, not only the battle at Pelennor but also in other places where he was inciting and attacking elves & dwarves & men. Wasn't one of the main reasons for Aragorn's tactic in revealing himself through the orthanc-palantir to get Sauron nervous and make him do something rash (like attack too soon)? And the same for marching to the black gate.... distract the mind of sauron, let the hobbits do their sneaking.

Also, there is the obvious difference between sam's use of the ring while in sight of mount doom and frodo's use while in mount doom. Sam slipped it on but did not claim it; Frodo and Gollum both set their wills up against each other for posession of the ring, but also both were claiming it against Sauron. When Frodo put it on, that was, although physically no different from Sam, psychologically and, we must assume "magically" different in the sense that putting it on THAT time was an enactment of his claim.
I like your argument Elanorraine, you have convinced me that your preceeding post is the most suitable answer to question 3 of this threads first post.
Thanks, although looking back I now realize it's almost exactly the same thing you posted on Aug 2nd, so I'm really just re-explaining your own ideas! Wink Smilie

Re: question number 1, I'm fairly sure the Valar hadn't anything to do with creating hobbits. If they are diminutive relations of Men, then they are children of Illuvitar and share in the doom of Men. They seem to have developed physical and cultural differences which nevertheless might also be found in some Men - namely: excellent sight and hearing beyond that of their taller relations, a talent for aiming things well, a slightly longer lifespan, a greater appetite for more food more often, and - perhaps most importantly - a soul which is apparently less easily and less quickly corrupted by outside 'magic' like the one ring. This last may have something to do with their heritage of greater woodcraft and greater closeness to nature. You can see in their quietness and love of their own (cultivated, bordered) land. In this sense they are almost like Tom Bombadil, who we see is not interested in what the ring offers nor affected by it, but who has enclosed himself in a certain space and is master of his domain (but NOT a dominator, as Sauron would have been). I'm sure Tom's influence among certain leading hobbits of each generation (Farmer Maggot can't be the only one) has something to do with this difference between hobbits and 'normal' sized Men. After all, if they are practicing good husbandry of the land in which they live, and their culture is full of NON adventurers, and it is, in a sense, more provincial -- then they have become more like Tom and less like Sauron as far as their 'government' goes. Surely it's no accident that Tom lives near and has contact with certain hobbits -- it may be one of Illuvitar's "surprises" (which were, if I recall, not foreseen by the Valar). If Bilbo's adventures and luck were not entirely for his own profit - if Frodo was 'meant' to have the ring - If Illuvitar's "providence" was in these events, then I see it as a small leap to assume that Illuvitar's "providence" also went into breaking off this subset of the race of Men and endowing them with certain biological and cultural heritages which were the primary defences against Sauron's victory at the end of the Third Age. I don't think it's an accident that we are unsure of their exact origins, or that they were largely ignored, forgotten, or unheard of by most Elves, Men, Maia, and Ents -- again if Frodo was "meant" to have the ring, to help destroy it, this business of being overlooked by the rest of the world certainly became an asset. No one (except perhaps Gandalf) had any inkling of what they were capable of - least of all Sauron.
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Arath Posted Monday 5th November 2007 (07:47am)

me thinks that "hobbits" were not made me thinks they are a kind of man...