Thread: The return of Morgoth
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Elves who truly hated the black one would never believed his lies again even had he been in the fairest form ever seen in arda.
Here then are my questions:
1.) Why would Eru who loved his children wish them to go trought pain and suffering by reviving the armies lost to morgoth
2.) From where would he get his apocalyptic army?
3.) His body is broken and much of his power is lost where would he get the strenght to break the chains that bind him?
edit: just as a afterthought i would like to thank vir for reminding me that morgoth would return... and i know there can be no specific answers (though i am known to be wrong at times) i would ask you for a theory or thoughts or anything
And maybe he could re-assemble his host from his own power as in my opinion to come back from the void he must have a certain measure of power. And there will surely be other spirits who were in the beginning with him joining him again as not all were destroyed in the battles with the Valar I guess.
"All that is gold does not glitter; not all those that wander are lost..." (by J.R.R.Tokien
Right you may be, my Dark Friend, for all that goes in eventually comes out. That is how Ea is. I will not wish to live to see it, for I am not much of a hero (I shall confess). Nor will I support it if it rests with me, for the Fallen-one can not be Lord of all, because he does not care about that ALL. All he wants is power, and then more power, power for it's own sake and yet power itself can not do any good, even to the one who possesses it. There is one more quatation I would like to put in
"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends..." (J. R. R. Tolkien, LoTR, Book 4, Ch.1)
As wise as the Valar were, they did not destroyed their Brother, but left him outside the Realm of Arda (remainigs of the World at the end of the First Age).
May Earendil's light never fade and Morgoth's face never show under the stars. By Eru may it be true.
PS I am not trying to be a mope but like in the bible it says it is going to happen.
Then, live long and prosper; be happy; and hope he doesn't come back in the lifetimes of our progeny; and above all, don't worry about it..
One will come from eternal darkness
To set new order and new rules to come.
Driven from eternal hate and madness
To his final end shall he be done.
'Morgoth was thus actually made captive in physical form, and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to Namo Mandos as judge -- and executioner. He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and excecuted: that is killed like one of the Incarnates.'
Myths Transformed Text VII, Morgoth's Ring
Also in Morgoth's Ring Tolkien noted:
'The myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion is of Numenorean origin; it is clearly made by Men, though Men acquainted with Elvish tradition.'
CJRT removed the Second Prophecy of Mandos for the 1977 Silmarillion and replaced it with a passage from the Valaquenta which says: '... and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwe and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos.'
Emphasis here on '... it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos'.
Some interesting thoughts in here....
I suppose it's not entirely possible that (even though never specifically mentioned), he could pull a Sauron (or Voldemort, for that matter) and have placed a bit of his power in some sort of object, leaving his soul in M.E?
Or maybe some sort of servant will come from who knows where and find a way to bring him back using some lost silmaril or something. Keep in mind, Shelob was only severely wounded and there is no mention of her official death. And if you recall from I believe the Silmarillion, Shelob was the epitome of evil, everywhere she went things would darken and die, destroying entire forests just through passing. I believe she didn't even take the spider-form till much later, implying she has the ability to change.
I like to think that Morgoth will never be physically returned, but instead has a "ghost" or just some omniscient power that will forever roam Middle Earth and be the cause of sin and war and evil things.
Or maybe this is just my wishful thinking haha....
Edit: I just realized I was mistaken and it was Shelob's mother who wreaked all the havoc in the past. Still though, the daughter spider of a super evil being sounds pretty good too.
I thought it was at the end of the world...?
I have to say Vir... That new avatar of yours is awesome though I liked the old one better ^^
Let us pray Melkor, First of the Ainur, Morgoth Bauglir the Black Lord of Thangorodrim never returns. But know this, his malice lives on and is ever present in the overwhelmingly greedy and power hungry modern society of Men.
Therefore let us who know from whence this comes can do our part, no matter how small, to retain at least some memory of the beauty of the Elder Days when Elves still roamed the Lands.
From what I gathered from the History books, when Morgoth returns it will be just him against the powers, no big armies involved. Morgoth will apparently try to cast down the Sun, or something.
how do we know that Melkor haven't returned already?
We would know. Other evil forces around us are the ones scheming behind our backs, so that one day they can bring back the might of Morgoth and wipe out the world in one fell swoop. I feel like ripping open the rift between time and space would have some sort of immediate effect on the world. The skies would turn red or something. Maybe it'll just be a black hole and we'll all be dead in less than an instant. It's not like waking up from a coma or being cryogenically unfrozen, where life just goes on. Yeah, we'd know.
Also because there's pretty much nothing written about it. As far as we know this is the fourth age. If it's anything like other ages, there will be a build up of evil forces underground (literally or metaphorically) and then suddenly a great unleashing. I think we are definitely in a build up stage right now
Is Melkor a republican?
If Fingolfin was able to wound Melkor several times with a sword, Melkor might be in for a bit of a shock if he returned now days and found himself assaulted with stealth jets and helicopter gunships firing missiles at him.
Sad really hey.
Valar - "why have you forsaken me?"
I agree, Brego. Melkor tended to work behind the scenes, gaining people's trust and teaching them ways to bring about their own end, while at the same time spreading lies and dissent among the population. You can look all around you in our current world and imagine where is influence could be.
So we should be wary of those who come with ideas that are too good to be true and learn to recognize evil. Perhaps Hitler is an example of this kind of Evil. At first he was just a politician with a plan.....
I definitely agree Melkor's lies and influence control the world as we live it today. But I don't think Morgoth has returned, signifying the end of time as we know it. As Brego said, once all of the powerful nations have turned against each other, and every human is weak in spirit or ready to betray their brother, then will Morgoth return to make the final blow. And only then will the Valar return, and at last send him to his doom. Melkor didn't work behind the scenes. His servants did. Morgoth was always the one we knew was in his lair scheming against us. It was our neighbor or coworker that we didn't pay attention to...
Melkor would become so powerful that he would release the spirits of evil.Such as balrogs,orcs evil men and dragons,trolls ect...
great, Amras great. However, he's gonna need more n that to win the battle of the dagor dagorath
Im not so sure about that gothmog. In the last march upon the world it took a massive number of elves plus the valar to defeat all the orcs morgoth had, and when he released the dragons they were only defeated becouse of the eagles. By now the elves are gone and most men are evil and week, so dragons and balrogs would be enough to crush any army that fought for true good.
As to Balrogs and Dragons, both have all been destroyed. Morgoth does not have the ability to create new stuff. Just breed and twist. I'd assume all the fire worms (from which the dragons were bred) are all gone. But Morgoth would still be left with orcs, many corrupt men and I'm sure he could find other spirits and such to join him.
On the other hand Cur, elves didn't have have 300 megaton bombs capable of consuming any molecule in a certain mile radius, or high energy laser beams launched from the other side of the world, or supersonic jets capable of causing mountains to collapse.
The elves and men won with swords and siege weapons. I don't see how our technoclogy could be that much weaker. So as long as the Vala appear, we might have a chance...probably not but, it'd be quite the light show...
Tulkas and Orome,i don't think Morgoth would win.
About those bombs. If morgoth built/stole a few he could destroy the world very easily, plus he could almost certainly make say, the U. S. A and Russia, both of which have enough nuclear weapons to destroy the world many, many times, fire all their weapons at once. After all, he only has to corrupt a few dozen people in the right places.
Morgoth would scare the living brains out of them.He's almost thirty feet of demon vala.kind of scary for a normal mortal like you and me.
It is not because of size, but because of an enormous will, stronger than anything else that things stronger than we can imagine can imagine. He corrupted the very essence of the world, so those bombs would make destroying all that he opposed very, very easy. It is said that the power which he put forth into the world and into his servants will return to him after eons in the void, and in his full might none can withstand him save all thirteen of the Valar united. By the time Ulmo received their summons the world would be in ashes.
For sure if it was just our bombs vs Morgoth he would definitely win. Our only chance of victory is to assume the Valar would appear and pull some deus ex machina.
Well said Curufinwe. It isn't about size or even brute strength. It's about his will. In a straight up wrestling match, Tulkas would defeat Melkor easily. But in a full out battle or war, Melkor has the advantage. An example would be during the First Theme. Melkor brought discord to the theme. Some of the aniur stopped singing, whereas some adjusted their singing to go along with his.
He tried to persuade Feanor with lies, and although Feanor didn't trust his words completely, Melkor's will was already doing the work. That is all that is needed to corrupt someone.
Glorfindel is not just a warrior elf,he has wisdom beyond his years,which are alot mind you.Well said Glorfindel! At the Dagor Dagorath Mandos Shall release all the dead and give their bodies back,then morgoth will create volcanoes too kill all on middle earth.Mandos shall give their bodies back and the last battle will be epic.Topped on most orcs,men and other animals will die.The valar will finally wrestled Morgoth to the ground and Eonwe will stab him thrice.Then Orome shall stick him with a spear,and Tulkas shall cut off his head.
and the master of doom shall smite him with his black sword, for he has not left middle earth yet. Then the world will be in ashes but the trees shall be reborn, and though lots of beauty has left morgoth is dead, and middle earth may grow fair once more.
morgoth shall die,yes
I'm not familiar with HOME - I've only read the Hobbit, Silmarillion, LOTR & Unfinished Tales.
However the idea of a final battle with Melkor and the dead at the end of the world (very Ragnorak) does not seem a good idea. Is this canon, or was it an idea that was in the back of Tolkien's mind? Like the 'new shadow' in the fourth age that Tolkien discarded, I hope he would have seen sense and decided to drop this idea.
The whole point of the legendarium is that he created a mythic background that eventually merged into our own time of men. The defeat of Sauron was the final act in that 10,000 year backdrop before our recorded history and he recognized it was a mistake to go beyond that. I believe that Tolkien saw middle earth as on our earth not another planet. His geological knowledge of the time needed for lands and mountains to change was a bit wrong - he was a Linguistics professor not a scientist after all....
Anyone thinking on the same lines?
In the book of lost tales the idea of middle earth being Europe is very prevalent. Tol Eressea was Britain, and a bit which broke of became Ireland. However, this idea was discarded by the time LoTR was written. The idea of dagor dagorath is indeed canon, and it is similar to Ragnarok. The world became mans as the elves left for Valinor, in the lost tales, the elves can't even breath the same air as men who are more numerous than them. They fade, and become "filmy" and incorporeal.
In LoTR and the sil, elves still fade, though less dramatically. The first age is the age of elves, the second age is the age of Numenor. Gil-Galad was the last king of the Noldor. When his kingdom was laid waste, the elves presence in middle-earth became far more passive. Lothlorien and Imaldris were still havens, but they did not actively fight orcs (some elves of Imaldris joined the rangers, but this was fairly minor), and sent no troops to aid men. They were besieged by Sauron in the third age, but they were largely left out of the story. Of course, both those places were living on the back of a ring, so when the master ring was destroyed they quickly dwindled.
Elronds' sons stayed for a time in Imaldris but they left to. When Morgoth returns, all the elves shall return from Valinor, and the world will be remade. Perhaps then men will return to the strength of their days in Numenor. Perhaps they will leave forever. Nowhere is anything said of the days after the dagorath, save that the elves shall return.
Thanks for the responses.
Hmmm....in some ways this is also very similar to Christian stories in Revelations with a Satan figure leading out the armies of Gog and Magog out to do battle with the angels. Although Tolkien disliked allegory in all its forms, he was no doubt affected by his CofE heritage.
Regardless of the canonical nature I think I'm going to ignore its existence like I do sequels to films I don't like. (Alien3, Star wars prequels, Terminator3 ) For some reason I find the idea a little disturbing and to me at least it jars with the rest of the Tolkien mythos.
I'd add I do love Tolkien - every time I revisit LOTR I see more of its depth and I haven't just joined the forums to pick holes! Statistical blip these are my first two posts...
One of the nice things about Tolkiens works is that there are so many, and they are fairly conflicting, so you get to choose what you like in many situations. One of the not so nice things about Tolkiens works is that there are so many, and they are fairly conflicting, so it is hard to definitively win arguments.
War of the Dagor Dagorath will rend apart Arda, only the Valar(or at least some of them) shall live. All the forces of evil shall. Morgoth in my opinion will be slayed by Eonwe, and Sauron by Orome. Feanor and the Elves that were slain shall be given life again and men also. The Valar and Eru will help conduct the second singing and all shall be created perfectly like the spring of Arda.