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Thread: The Most Important Battle

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What do you think was the most Important battle in Middle Earth? I have been trying to work this out for a few days, and can't decide from

-The Disaster of Gladden Fields [The Ring is Lost]
-Battle of the Last Alliance [Sauron loses the Ring]
-Battle of Pelennor Fields. [Death of the Witch-King, Theoden and allows the Battle of the Black Gate, which allows Frodo to destroy the Ring]

and Possibly the battle of the Black gate, which allows Frodo to destroy the ring. What do you think was the most important?

I think the Battle of the Last Alliance; Isildur cutting the Ring off of Sauron's hand was crucial, to me. After that, keeping it away from him was important but it had to be taken away first.
Exactly, but Isildur losing the Ring allowed it get passed down to Frodo, instead of staying on Isildur's mantelpiece allowing Frodo to eat scones, and possibly meaning it doesn't get destroyed.
I see your point, but I still think getting it away from Sauron in the first place takes precedence..
Getting it away from Sauron was important, but Isildur didn't destroy the ring. He could have done anything with it, and was going to leave it on his mantelpeice, until he got killed at Gladden Fields and lost the ring.
Well, what about the ones before the Third Age? I would have the go with the Nírnaeth Arnoediad, since many of the Noldor and Edain were killed. It certainly was the largest battle in Arda's history, and the greatest victory for Morgoth.
EDIT: Though if you're talking about the most important battle for Good, then the Wrath of the Valar against Morgoth was it.
The Most important battle for anyone, like if there was one that allowed Sauron to be king of Middle Earth and turn everyone into Orcs, or one that allowed Aragorn to overthrow middle earth, and replace all the orcs with humans again.
Well, like I said. The Nírnaeth Arnoediad for Evil, and the Wrath of the Valar for Good.
I have to agree with Sian, the Last Alliance. If Sauron would have survived with the Ring, who knows what would have happened.
However, Sauron "dying" and loosing the ring is less important than Isildur dying and loosing the ring, because if Isildur survived, he would have kept it, just not allowing it to be destroyed, but Sauron did die so he couldn't do anything with it.
Well Gimli, if the Valar hadn't unleashed their power against the First Dark Lord, things would have been far worse! Morgoth was the First Evil, a Valar himself, far more powerful than Sauron his lieutenant. No battle from the Third or Second Ages could possibly compare to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad or the War of Wrath.
Fornac does have a point. But I don't know anything about the War of Wrath. Sad Smilie
I've read the Silmarillion (after a hard struggle), so I have some knowledge. Basically the War of Wrath was when Earendil (father of Elrond, actually a man and why Elrond was called half-elven) sailed across the Western Sea from Beleriand (land west of what we classically think of as Middle Earth - Arnor, Rhovanion, Rohan, Gondor and Mordor. The Ered Luin or Blue Mountains were actually much longer at the time, stretching all the way north and through Beleriand) with a Simaril (one of the three incredibly beautiful jewels that Morgoth stole from the Elves living in the Undying Lands, causing one of their 'clans', the Noldor, to travel over the Sea and fight against him. The one that Earendil had was actually stolen from Morgoth by Beren and Luthien) to light his way. He came to the Undying Lands and begged the Valar (basically the Gods of Arda) to destroy Morgoth (because by this point most of the Elves had been killed or corrupted). Once they had heard the whole tradgedy, the Valar went across the Sea (in wrath) and destroyed Angband, the land of Morgoth, and his vast and ancient fortress there. Such was the power of the Valar that they submerged Beleriand beneath the Sea, causing the end of the First Age.
And the Nirnaeth Arnoediad (means the Battle of Unnumbered Tears in Quenya) was basically just an unimaginably huge battle which the Elves and Men lost. Afterwards there was no hope for them.
Thanks. Were the 3 Silmaril turned into 3 Rings of power?
No Cheesey. The silmarils came to be dispersed into the elements out of which Arda was made: earth, water and air. The Rings were totally a different strain of thought. They conferred only staying of the ravages of time. The silmarils made them possible. Read 'The Silmarillion' as soon as possible
Well, Fornac, I never have been able to read the Silmarillion, but I have read most of the Unfinished Tales, so I am ill-informed of most other battles.
I have read the bit about Isildur and Gil-Galad at the end, I have tried the rest of TS but that is also confusing.
One of the three Silmarils was thrown in the ocean by Maglor; one went into a fiery abyss with Maedhros; and the third sails through the nighttime sky on Eärendil's brow.

The Silmarillion is only confusing because it contains so many names and covers thousands of years. Take it a little at a time and use the info at the back of the book to see the genealogies of the Elves and the first Men. And no one learns it all in one reading, so don't worry if you get bogged down in the Creation story and all about the Valla; you can come back with a later read to get a better understanding. The book's first bad guy, Melkor (Morgoth) was later Sauron's boss and predecessor; and he was ever so much worse than Sauron, having Dragons and Balrogs, besides Orcs and Trolls at his command besides Orcs and Trolls at his command, he had .
Quote:
having Dragons and Balrogs, besides Orcs and Trolls at his command besides Orcs and Trolls at his command, he had .


Orc Going Huh Smilie
My proofreading editor fell down on the job with that one, eh what?

Must have been another of my senior moments. Orc Grinning Smilie

I think there were more important battles in the silmarillion. but I would go for Pelennor because destroying the ring was what ended Sauron. It also proved men could fight and win against impossible odds. It started the Age of Men.

  Now let's not forget the battle of the Shire, it may not have been the most important, but the old man never stood a chance and it was of great importance to the Hobbits, a whole life and lives of further generations, why, Rosie Cotton would never of had her baker's dozen of buns to continue Samwise's line if they were beaten

Certainly, the most important battle seems to be the Wrath's Battle, with the greatest armies and the biggest consequences after it.
The battles against Sauron after that were children's play laugh

I must disagree.  No battle with Sauron was child's play.  And all battles throughout the Ages were important and had far flung revocations.  The defeat of Sauron by the destruction of the Ring was brought about by several incidents that had weakened him in the past.  He fought one on one as the greatest werewolf with Finrod Felagund and though he brought about Noldor prince's doom, he also had to use his spirit form (since he was a Maia) to tuck tail and run back to the feet of his master, Morgoth the Thief, to lick his wounds.  His lust for power and spite for the Children of Illuvator always led him to acts that led to his downfall.  By putting forth his power in the One Ring, he once again weakened himself and made his eventual doom possible.  Remember he fooled Celebrimbor into thinking he was fair and giving his knowledge freely.

I do agree and am most saddened that the Nirnaeth Aernodiad was the most triumphant moment for the Evil of the North.  That battle was so important in several ways.  First, we must remember that some Men turned on the side of good and turned the tide of the battle for Evil.  But that defeat set up the eventual end of the War of the Jewels when Hurin and Hour saved Turgon, thus setting up the eventual mergence of the races and birth of the greatest mariner to sail MiddleEarth.

The Silmarillion may be hard to digest for many, but I STRONGLY urge anyone that puts it down to pick it up again after a while.  It brings so much more to the tales of later years and gives the reader much more insight into the plight of the Elves.  I mean, if you haven't read TS, you don't really know why the Elves go into the West or where they are going to. 

I know I strayed from the battle theme but it all came in a rush and I would love to discuss any of the many battles in ME. 

 

 

Without the War of Wrath (and the result of course) there would be no earth, men or mithril.

I personally believe that the Battle of Five Armies was the most important. Do you realize that orcs are like elves; unable to die of old age? If most of the hadn't been killed in that battle, think of how many there would have been when the War of the Ring took place? Many people don't know this, but many of Sauron's orcs came from the Misty Mountains and he eventually found a way to spawn them himself after Morgoth. Yes, he would have made more, but the Battle of Five Armies wiped out a huge portion of his reserves.

I'm not sure it's a given that Orcs are as long lived as Elves, generally speaking.

But this touches upon the confusing origin of Orcs! Although it was a fairly consistent part of Tolkien's later ideas that in the First Age some Maiar took the physical form of orcs...

... Tolkien muses about calling these notable orcs Boldogs.

Actually, Morgoth created the very first orcs by torturing Elves. This theory is confirmed in the Silmarillion.

The Wise of Eressea think this is so, yes, within the context of the constructed Silmarillion, but the idea Christopher Tolkien chose for this version was but one idea that Tolkien himself considered.

See my long and boring reply in the thread 'How do orcs reproduce' for the details, posted today.

For example, and I'm not saying the following was certainly Tolkien's final idea, but within the concept that Men were the source of regular orcs, outside of the Maiar-orcs [I am adding an extra break for easier reading below, and I edited it a bit for brevity]...

Moreover, the Orcs continued to live and breed and to carry on their business of ravaging and plundering after Morgoth was overthrown. (...) They needed food and drink, and rest, though many were by training as tough as Dwarves in enduring hardship.

They could be slain, and they were subject to disease; but apart from these ills they died and were not immortal, even according to the manner of the Quendi; indeed they appear to have been by nature short-lived compared with the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain.

JRRT, Myths Transformed, Morgoth's Ring

I would also say that the most crucial battles were the ones against Morgoth. I'd chose Nírnaeth Arnoediad, because the scale of it and it's impact on history of all the Middle Earth races was huge.

In the Third Age it is hard to chose one, because all of them were like milestones for the story. The Last Alliance of Elves and Men ended Second Age. It made a huge impact on the future events, it reshuffled the chances on both sides. Last Alliance was dissolved. Sauron lost his most powerful tool to destroy Middle Earth and had to rebuild his strength.

For me the Battle of the Pelennor Fields has to be the one that had the biggest impact on the history in the Third Age. That was the Battle that led to destroying Sauron of course. But if the Ring wasn't destroyed, the battle would end as Mordor's victory. And it would bury the last chance of defeating Sauron, so the result still would be the most crucial for the future of Arda.