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Faramir began this thread with the following question

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I have a question: Are Melko and Melkor the same? I am relitively sure of this but I would just like to reasure myself


Valedhelgwath replied

The name Melko was the name Tolkien was using for Melkor in the early drafts of his work. in these early drafts many names, places and entire plots became changed to what we now see in the Silmarillion

I think I've seen it spelled it like that before, and yes I think it is the same person.

[Edited on 31/12/2002 by Stonehelm]
Melkor is called Melko in the Unfinished Tales
I have another question: Why is Kor not mentioned in the Silmarillion but talked about so much in the Unfinished Tales?
Another question. Why, when JRR took so much trouble to make middle earth so realistic ie history, folklore, languages etc did he neglect to create some sort of religious belief for men. Even the most basic societies always have some sort of religion even if it is the sun or mountains.
I beleive that if he didn't do this it was because he was a devout Catholic (please correct me if I am wrong) and di not want to in any way create another religion. He very wel may have made some sort of religion and I may have missed it but if not that is the reason why.
I also have another question: Does anyone have any good book ideas that have something to do with Tolkien as I have a gift card for Borders (a book store).
That all depends on what you already have that is Tolkien related and how much the gift certificate is for. A lot of Tolkien books are expensive.

The Hobbit Companion is good.
Relams of Tolkien: Images of Middle Earth
Tolkien: Author of the Century
Tolkien Biography

The HOME series. (some of it is really good, some is boring) IF you like history and don't mind Christopher's commentaries.

Farmer Giles of Ham
Smith of Wooten Major
The Tolkien Reader
Leaf by Niggle
The BBC Radio Broadcast with Sir Ian Holms is wonderful on tape.
The hard back all in one LOTR illustrated by Alan Lee is beautiful. He also illustrated The Hobbit. Both have wonderful pictures.

The list could go on and on, I don't have all of my Tolkien books in front of me at the moment and can't remember the names of everything I have.

Oh um Tolkien's Letters is very interesting too.

Faramir, your answer about religion is correct. I read somewhere, that Tolkien purposely did not put religion in LOTR. Also check out Finding God in LOTR,
Eolynn, for a more complete answer.

And yes Melko and Melkor are the same person.

Another good book is Robert Foster's Complet Guide to Middle Earth. He has 2. One just covers the Hobbit and LOTR and the other covers both of those plus the Sil. The 2nd one is bigger and more comprehensive. Excellent book.

Faramir, later today I will gather all of my books and give you the comple titles and ISBN #s and postAuthorIDs. If you are interested, and Private postBody you.

Thanks that would be great!
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I also have another question: Does anyone have any good book ideas that have something to do with Tolkien as I have a gift card for Borders (a book store).
And don't forget Karen Wynn Fonstad's The Atlas of Middle-earth (Revised Edition) ISBN 0-618-12699-6 (pbk.) 210 pages filled with maps and supporting text covering places in The Hobbit, LotR, The Silmarillion, and H.O.M.E..
I gave a friend a copy of "Bored of the Rings"...he enjoyed it Big Smile Smilie
I have Bored of the Rings and I was going to buy The Atlas of Middle earth but they moved the price up $8 from $16 to $24 and I only had $15 + some money of my own that I had before Christmas. but I am getting my own copy of the Silmarillion for my birthday.
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I was going to buy The Atlas of Middle earth but they moved the price up $8 from $16 to $24
$24 is the list price of the atlas, I suppose you may have seen it on sale, but 1/3 off seems like quite a discount.

Save your pennies, ask around if you can do some odd jobs for some more money. Who knows, if people know you are saving to buy a book they may even throw in a little extra. Elf Winking Smilie
I also have another question: Does anyone have any good book ideas that have something to do with Tolkien as I have a gift card for Borders (a book store).
The single most useful Tolkien resource that I have and can't live without is Letters of J R R Tolkien.
If I have any questions about any of the characters, history or places in Middle Earth, I refer to it. It is available in paperback so your gift certificate should cover it.
I also enjoy listening to a cassette tape of Tolkien reading from The Hobbit. I got that at Borders for $12.00 US.
thank you everyone I am considering all of these and am very appreciative of all of the responses that I recived. Big Smile Smilie
2 more questions:
1. Is it possible that in the movie the stone that Gandalf inserted into his staff was a Silmaril (highly improbable but maybe)?

2. How do you get those quotes at the bottom of you posts?

P.S. I have not checked the books on this matter.



[Edited on 6/1/2003 by faramir]
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1. Is it possible that in the movie the stone that Gandalf inserted into his staff was a Silmaril (highly improbable but maybe)?

Highly improbable.
From Of the Voyage of Earendil
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And thus it came to pass that the Silmarils found their long homes: one in the airs of the heaven, and one in the fires of the heart of the world, and one in the deep waters.


Therefore all three Silmarils accounted for and not in Gandalf's staff.
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2. How do you get those quotes at the bottom of you posts?


That would be your "Signature". Click on "My Account", then "Change Your Info". Scroll down and you will find a box for your signature. It can be no more than 3 lines including blank spaces. You cannot use Bold text, URL's or Smilies as these use up precious band width.

Hope this helps. Big Smile Smilie

What was that stone then? (or are there many stones that glow or give off light like to the Silmarils)

[Edited on 6/1/2003 by faramir]
Another: What do I put in for HTML coding in my Quote?
Faramir,
I don't think you really need to worry about using HTML coding. I am not sure but I think you would only need it for bold text, url link or line spacing, all which are discouraged.
In other words, just type your quote in and that should be enough.
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What was that stone then? (or are there many stones that glow or give off light like to the Silmarils)
In the book, when in Moria, Gandalf's staff is said to have a pale glow eminating from it's tip. I never had the impression that he had a stone in his staff, but it was his own magical power that was creating the light.

In the film, there is a stone in the staff, but again I think the light is supposed to be coming either from the staff or from Gandalf. In reality, however, Ian McKellen carried a battery in his backpack which powered a light in the end of the staff. This is perhaps why they made a point of having a stone there, as it would be easier to film than making the light appear to come from a length of wood.

Also, in answer to your question, there were other gems that were filled with light. Both of the Elendilmir (Star of the North) stones shone brightly (the one that Isildur lost actually continuing to shine even when he wore the One Ring). The Phial of Galadriel also contained the light of Earendil (which incidently was a silmaril carried in the sky by Earendil).

Trapping light in precious stones seems to be something the Noldor were quite good at.
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Faramir,
I don't think you really need to worry about using HTML coding. I am not sure but I think you would only need it for bold text, url link or line spacing, all which are discouraged.
In other words, just type your quote in and that should be enough.
In fact Faramir, if you use more than three lines (including blank lines) of text that is anything but plain text you will get yelled at (nicely though) Happy Elf Smilie because it violates our rules, which you received a copy of with your password. Moderator Smilie Elf With a Big Grin Smilie

[Edited on 7/1/2003 by Grondmaster]
I got it to work without HTML it just took a little longer to take effect that I thought it would. Thanks Big Smile Smilie
Another: In the movie guide to the FOTR it is said that Legolas is 2900 (I forget the exact #) can anyone confirm this from some othe source?

[Edited on 9/1/2003 by faramir]
I think Tolkien never really specified Legolas's exact age. He just hints at in, like in TTT in Fangorn Forest, when Legolas says the forest is so old it makes him feel almost young again.
All I can say is that he is not the Legolas Greenleaf of Gondolin, but of Mirkwood. Thus, he may be 2900 years old, which would make him about 200 years older than Arwen; however, I did not find his birth recorded in Appendix B of RotK. Anyone else have an answer for Faramir?
I think they just made that up for the purpose of having an exact age.
I have read his age somewhere, although it was not exact. I just cannot find it again. I am looking for you though.
The age is on the page on Orlando Bloom in the FOTR Movie book.
Another: Does anyone know hhow to say "victory" or "victorious" in elvish if so please do tell!
By elvish do you mean Quenya or Sindarin?
Because the word for victory in Quenya is "túre"
thanks Big Smile Smilie and does anyone know where I can get a Elvish dictionary?
If you want it English-Quenya, then buy the "Basic Quenya" by Nancy Martsch, I belive it comes with a dictionary, but is basicaly a book to learn Quenya. And if you want it Spanish-Quenya, the get "La lengua de los elfos" by Luis Gonzales Baixauli, It is not as complete as the basic Quenya, but is the best book for people who speak spanish and want to learn quenya.
http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/index.html will give you everything you need, my friend. See my posts on speak elvish, under Tolkien: the postAuthorID.
Thanks Peredhil.
You will find a link to this site and 2 other good ones in the menu on the left, junder "General"/"Web Links" Big Smile Smilie
kool. maybe i will try buying that. but my mom doesnt want to spend money or me spend my money. Sad Smilie phooey
I have another question, does anybody here knows exactly how many years does the first age has?
The times at the end of the First Age become a little vague so you have to work backwards from when Elros died In SA 442 at an age of 500. The date of his birth is not actually given, except to say it was about the same time as Tuor began to feel old and left Middle Earth for the west (FA 543) . As most Men were feeling old at about the age of 70 during this period, it means the First age lasted about 600 years.
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Another question. Why, when JRR took so much trouble to make middle earth so realistic ie history, folklore, languages etc did he neglect to create some sort of religious belief for men. Even the most basic societies always have some sort of religion even if it is the sun or mountains.


I am responding to Eolynn's post about men and their religion. If you recall when Frodo and Samwise were at Henneth Annun with Faramir before they eat dinner they all stand up and look to "the west that is forgotten and further west to what exists still." That shows that atleast some gondorians still know about the valar and possibly still worship them as gods. Also in Numenor they had a hallowed place on Meneltarma where they worshipped Eru Illuvatar. (until they began to worship Melkor under the power of Sauron.)

(Edited by Vee - just to add the relevant quote to avoid people having to scroll back through pages to find it. )


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Another question. Why, when JRR took so much trouble to make middle earth so realistic ie history, folklore, languages etc did he neglect to create some sort of religious belief for men. Even the most basic societies always have some sort of religion even if it is the sun or mountains.


I am responding to Eolynn's post about men and their religion. If you recall when Frodo and Samwise were at Henneth Annun with Faramir before they eat dinner they all stand up and look to "the west that is forgotten and further west to what exists still." That shows that atleast some gondorians still know about the valar and possibly still worship them as gods. Also in Numenor they had a hallowed place on Meneltarma where they worshipped Eru Illuvatar. (until they began to worship Melkor under the power of Sauron.)






An interesting question - we don't see much in the way of worship (as we know it today) and the whole 'god' thing seems different in Middle-earth.

There is a bit from the Letters of JRRR Tolkien about Sauron and Numenor.....

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He (Sauron) denies the existence of God, saying that the One is a mere invention of the jealous Valar of the West, the oracle of their own wishes. The chief of the gods is he that dwells in the Void, who will conquer in the end, and in the void make endless realms for his servants. The Ban (of men from Valinor) is only a lying device of fear to restrain the Kings of Men from seizing everlasting life and rivalling the Valar.


To me it seems that the main belief in Middle-earth is that Elves die and go to the Halls of Mandos, or choose to live in Aman until the end of days and Men, having the gift of The One, die and go beyond the world to they know not what, but it is thought they will join the choirs of the Ainur after the end of days. Eru is believed to be The One, the Creator of all things, but does not demand worship. The Valar, although respected, are not Worshipped but they are seen as gods. The evil ones such as Sauron and Melkor are the ones who demanded worship. Well, that's how I see it.

Aragorn says to Arwen (RotK - Appendix A)

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In sorrow we must go, but not in despair. Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory, Farwell!
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Eru is believed to be The One, the Creator of all things, but does not demand worship. The Valar, although respected, are not Worshipped but they are seen as gods. The evil ones such as Sauron and Melkor are the ones who demanded worship.
IMHO most peoples of Middle-earth believed in Eru, the creator, but there was no requirement for them to enslave themselves in his name. There were no established religions and no priestly classes, thus the people were free for Melkor and Sauron to corrupt.

I think Tolkien kept religion out of his design of Middle-earth toward keeping the story simpler. He knew if religious sects were included, he would have to add the strife that they would cause, thus detracting from that brought about by Melkor and Sauron.

I'm not saying religion is wrong here, only that it has complicated the lives of people throughout history; much ill will has been fostered in its name. Knowing this Tolkien a religious man (as am I) just left it out of his story.
That makes a lot of sense, Grondy.
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I think Tolkien kept religion out of his design of Middle-earth toward keeping the story simpler. He knew if religious sects were included, he would have to add the strife that they would cause, thus detracting from that brought about by Melkor and Sauron.


I tend to look at this from a slightly different angle. Religion, whichever one you choose because they all have it in common, is a test of faith. It is something man invented to help explain the mysteries of life and death etc. In a way religion is purely belief, in something that cannot be proved. If God was proved to exist, he may still be worshipped but it would no longer be religion.

The big difference between Tolkien's world and our own is that the Elves did not have to have faith in something that might or might not be there. They knew for a fact that the Valar and Maiar existed because they had seen them, lived among them and been taught by them. Okay, they maybe never saw Iluvatar, but when a man who builds mountains for a living tells you that he has sung in a choir at the main man's feet, it does tend to make belief a little more tenuable. Tolkien did not need religion. Religion is doubt and faith. The elves had proof.

In a way, the whole of the Silmarillion is a religious crusade, or at least it would have been if the only participants had been the followers of the Valar, rather than including the Valar themselves. Once the Valar joined in, it is no longer seen as being religious, but rather a fight between forces of good and evil. To me religion is everywhere in the Silmarillion and LotR, it is just a case of not seeing the wood for the trees.
I found a note in The Letters of JRR Tolkien about religion and worship.


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The immediate 'authorities' are the Valar (the Powers or Authorities): the 'gods'. But they are only created spirits - of high angelic order we should say, with their attendant lesser angels - reverend, therefore, but not worshipful;*......

*There are thus no temples or 'churches' or fanes in this 'world' among 'good' peoples. They had little or no 'religion' in the sense of worship. For help they may call on a Vala (as Elbereth) as a Catholic might on a Saint, though no doubt knowing in theory as well as he that the power of the Vala was limited and derivative. But this is a 'primitive age': and these folk may be said to view the Valar as children view their parents or immediate adult superiors, and though they know they are subjects of the King he does not live in their country nor have there any dwelling. I do not think Hobbits practised any form of worship or prayer (unless through exceptional contact with Elves). The Numenorieans (and others of that branch of Humanity, that fought against Morgorth, even if they elected to remain in Middle-earth and did not go to Mumenor: such as the Rohirrim) were pure monotheists. But there was no temple in Numenor (until Sauron introduced the cult of Morgoth). The top of the Mountain, the Meneltarma or Pillar of Heaven, was dedicated to Eru, the One, and there at any time privately, and at certain times publicly, God was invoked, praised, and adored: an imitation of the Valar and the Mountain of Aman........
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I have another question: Why is Kor not mentioned in the Silmarillion but talked about so much in the Unfinished Tales?


I think you might mean The Book of Lost Tales, but basically, in the later Quenta Silmarillion Tirion upon Túna replaced Túna upon Kôr. Notes in The History of Eriol or Ćlfwine include Heorrenda calling Kôr (or Gwâr) Tűn, and in context this is the Old English word tún from which modern English 'town' developed. Túna will be an Elvish word in any case, as noted (for example) in the later work Etymologies:

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KOR- 'round' (...) Kôr 'round hill upon which Túna (Tűn) was built.' (...) TUN- (...) Noldorin tund, tunn hill, mound Q. Tún, Túna 'Elf-city in Valinor.'


In a version of Quenta Silmarillion written before The Lord of the Rings was completed: upon the Hill of Kôr was built Túna, the Hill-city, which the Gnomes in their later speech called Tűn or Eledűn. In the later Quenta Silmarillion, as I say, Tirion upon Túna replaced Túna upon Kôr.

Of course this is the shortened, perhaps less confusing explanation!

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The name Melko was the name Tolkien was using for Melkor in the early drafts of his work. in these early drafts many names, places and entire plots became changed to what we now see in the Silmarillion


Also, it looks like Tolkien was going to pick up Melko as an alternate form alongside Melkor with respect to later conceptions, noting the glossary found in the 'Athrabeth section' of Morgoth's Ring.