Hello RomereX,
was your thesis devoted only to the question of Satan or to other parallels between Silmarillion and the Holy Bible?
Thread: Morgoth Satan and the Holy Bible...
Hello again RomereX, good to see you here. 
Welcome to the forum, RomereX.
I'm not up on the Silmarillion, so the others will have to take you on. Have fun.
I'm not up on the Silmarillion, so the others will have to take you on. Have fun.
Sorry to admit that I am more familliar with the Sil than with the bible, so I dont know if I can help with comparisons. Would be interested to know some of them though. Since Tolkien was a catholic, the correlations are probably not just coincidental.
Question: Are you finished your thesis? If so, I think it is a little late for this forum to be of any benefit to it. Why post now and not before you finished?
Question: Are you finished your thesis? If so, I think it is a little late for this forum to be of any benefit to it. Why post now and not before you finished?
Well yes there are similarities between the works of Tolkien and the Bible. However, they are not to be interpreted as direct references (that was something Tolkien much disliked in a story) but rather as "truths" that'll always come back no matter which world you look in you'll always have your Satan and always have your good God...
Yes and no, Iago (welcome!)
For me, the most important parallel between Tolkien's vision of the history and the Bible is the notion of history as a Fall... in contrast to the theories of evolution (for instance) which represent the history in terms of Progress.
For me, the most important parallel between Tolkien's vision of the history and the Bible is the notion of history as a Fall... in contrast to the theories of evolution (for instance) which represent the history in terms of Progress.
Absolutely Eryan but then again it is (IMHO) to be seen as the "truth" Tolkien believed in that the world starts of good and then goes down...
This is why Tolkien dissliked the Arthurian tales:
[Edited on 13/3/2002 by iago]
This is why Tolkien dissliked the Arthurian tales:
Quote:
"(i)t is involved in, and explicitly contains the Christian religion. For reasons which I will not elaborate, that seems to me fatal. Myth and fairy- story must, as all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religious truth (or error), but not explicit, not in the known form of the primary 'real' world."
"(i)t is involved in, and explicitly contains the Christian religion. For reasons which I will not elaborate, that seems to me fatal. Myth and fairy- story must, as all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religious truth (or error), but not explicit, not in the known form of the primary 'real' world."
[Edited on 13/3/2002 by iago]
It's an interesting idea.. Having only read it once, i can't really say. But the stories had to be influenced by tolkiens life.. how could they not, its only natural, everything you do reflects a little of you in it.. so, if he was catholic, then i imagine there are some similarities, whether he meant for there to be or not...
on the other hand, if you really think about it, if you want to, you can convince your self of anything, and see anything in it.. If you want to believe there are similarities, then i guarantee you will find things to support it!
on the other hand, if you really think about it, if you want to, you can convince your self of anything, and see anything in it.. If you want to believe there are similarities, then i guarantee you will find things to support it!
Yes, Gimli, those are storys from JRRT's life, Beren and Tinuviel, or maybe Aragorn and Arwen (looking in general his works) could be conected to his mariage: an elf and a human (races taken as religions), ded's disagreament, She is always older than He is...
But what cinnection it has with the Bible? My opinion is that if u wanna call Tolkien's works a Bible, RomereX, it can be called like that just in case u wanna say it is saint to his fan(atic)s (like i olso am, but i'm not religious, so i don't call anything holly or saint).... Well i sometimes say "F* Iluvatar" with all respect....
But what cinnection it has with the Bible? My opinion is that if u wanna call Tolkien's works a Bible, RomereX, it can be called like that just in case u wanna say it is saint to his fan(atic)s (like i olso am, but i'm not religious, so i don't call anything holly or saint).... Well i sometimes say "F* Iluvatar" with all respect....
ok. i've read that a dozen times now... im still lost.. I dont think anyone said that the book is a bible or anything.. we were talking about the connections in them... the likenesses..Similarities... as in metaphors... im not sure what Saints have to do with it...
Sorry.. not trying to be rude.. but i have no idea what you were talking about there.. please clarify....
Sorry.. not trying to be rude.. but i have no idea what you were talking about there.. please clarify....
I read an article in The New Yorker a few weeks ago concerning Tolkien's Catholism, it said that Tolkien was quoted as saying (in a letter to a friend) that the lotr was a highly cathloic work but Tolkien had tried to wipe out all refrences because he felt that his work would be critisized and taken differently for this reason, not for what it was. Also i agree that the biggest trend (that corresponds to Judo-Christian tradition, morals, history as recorded in scripture) is this concept of decline, and this is especially seen in the Simarlilon, most likly because it covers most all of Tolkiens history.
I just got a book yesterday called Finding God in Lord of the Rings... Ill let you know what it says.. sounded interesting.. and they did a good job at the begining of saying that they are in no way saying this is what Tolkien ment, they admit that he never wanted it to be considered one, and stated that they feel that he prolly didnt intend it to be in any sort of way a religions book. they are just showing how his christian life could have rubbed off in the book.. with example.. im only a few pages in, but its pretty interesting reading.
Sorry to disappoint you, but if based on any holy mythology, the Silmarillion is based on Celtic mythology. If you care to go to your local library and care to read any text book you will discover this. The only possible bible the Silmarillion could even be based on is the Irish bible as this was modified to take in Celtic mythology in order to convert the local populace.
Actually, I've read all of the Bible, and much of the Simarillion. Tolkien was a Christian, and, of course, had a distinctly Christian worldview. I was struck by many f the parallels btween the two both in implied morality and in the grand themes of sin and fallen humanity (or Elfmanity).
Morgoth greedily wants power, so he descends to Middle Eath, where he decieves the populace for his own nefarious ends. He cannot create, as Eru does, but he can distort the creation. Satan also cannot create, but turns the fallen angels who follow him into an army of demons.
Mankind and Elfenkind are often the victims of the evil machinations of Morgoth, and are tricked by him, led to their own destruction. The world, once a place of innocent bliss, falls under the spell of evil, and those who attempt to undo evil by its own means are themselves corrupted. This too, echoes the Biblical tale of the fall ad redemption.
Tolkien removed any too-obvious parallels to Christianity, fearing that his tale would have less appeal otherwise. He wanted to make a entertaining story which would appeal to all, yet he put a powerul, allegorical theme throughout- one which resonates with great moral and theological truths.
Morgoth greedily wants power, so he descends to Middle Eath, where he decieves the populace for his own nefarious ends. He cannot create, as Eru does, but he can distort the creation. Satan also cannot create, but turns the fallen angels who follow him into an army of demons.
Mankind and Elfenkind are often the victims of the evil machinations of Morgoth, and are tricked by him, led to their own destruction. The world, once a place of innocent bliss, falls under the spell of evil, and those who attempt to undo evil by its own means are themselves corrupted. This too, echoes the Biblical tale of the fall ad redemption.
Tolkien removed any too-obvious parallels to Christianity, fearing that his tale would have less appeal otherwise. He wanted to make a entertaining story which would appeal to all, yet he put a powerul, allegorical theme throughout- one which resonates with great moral and theological truths.
Right you are, Tabitheriel. Welcome to our forum. 
The morality and parallels are there but only in the background because Tolkien disliked allegory and didn't want any religious controversy getting in the way of his story.
The morality and parallels are there but only in the background because Tolkien disliked allegory and didn't want any religious controversy getting in the way of his story.
Well if you read the correct un-abridged version of the Bible like the one with Adam's first wife Lilith you will find that Satan was cast out of heaven for putting humans before Jehovah.
I have not read the Bible very much, so I don't know how much I can contribute to this conversation 
...but I thought it was an interesting topic.
I really like this Iago. I also noticed the theme of the Fall which several other people have mentioned. I just have to ask though: aren't the themes of a 'Satan' and a 'good God' present in all mythologies? The theme of the Fall, innocence vs. experience and redemption, I don't believe this only a Christian theme. Humans everywhere have thought these things because in our beginings we all have the same needs that need to be satisfied. Mythology and religion (which is I think mythology on another level) are ways to satisfy these things and so common themes are found in myths and religions. Tolkien, being a Catholic, probably did mean these parellells in a Christian way, but that does not mean that they were not present elsewhere as I'm sure other readers in other cultures will appreciate.
I liked your quote about the Arthurian legends Iago, I think it expresses Tolkien's balance between Christianity and mythology.
Could you explain more about the Celtic mythology and the Irish Bible Ross, I find that interesting.
...but I thought it was an interesting topic. Quote:
Well yes there are similarities between the works of Tolkien and the Bible. However, they are not to be interpreted as direct references (that was something Tolkien much disliked in a story) but rather as "truths" that'll always come back no matter which world you look in you'll always have your Satan and always have your good God...
Well yes there are similarities between the works of Tolkien and the Bible. However, they are not to be interpreted as direct references (that was something Tolkien much disliked in a story) but rather as "truths" that'll always come back no matter which world you look in you'll always have your Satan and always have your good God...
I really like this Iago. I also noticed the theme of the Fall which several other people have mentioned. I just have to ask though: aren't the themes of a 'Satan' and a 'good God' present in all mythologies? The theme of the Fall, innocence vs. experience and redemption, I don't believe this only a Christian theme. Humans everywhere have thought these things because in our beginings we all have the same needs that need to be satisfied. Mythology and religion (which is I think mythology on another level) are ways to satisfy these things and so common themes are found in myths and religions. Tolkien, being a Catholic, probably did mean these parellells in a Christian way, but that does not mean that they were not present elsewhere as I'm sure other readers in other cultures will appreciate.
I liked your quote about the Arthurian legends Iago, I think it expresses Tolkien's balance between Christianity and mythology.
Could you explain more about the Celtic mythology and the Irish Bible Ross, I find that interesting.
Quote:
Well if you read the correct un-abridged version of the Bible like the one with Adam's first wife Lilith you will find that Satan was cast out of heaven for putting humans before Jehovah.
Well if you read the correct un-abridged version of the Bible like the one with Adam's first wife Lilith you will find that Satan was cast out of heaven for putting humans before Jehovah.
That is incorrect.
This is NOT the original unabridged version of the bible as you say. It is the bible fused with mythologies and paganistic beliefs.
Guess what? I have been thinking about this kind of quetions long and hard....ok, maybe not that long and hard but I would like to just say it is impossible to write a story without references to anything related to our life and what we know. It is almost impossible. Why do you think we are able to relate to stories, songs, poems or other literary works? They are created by humans who depend on their experience, imagination and everyday life to come out with it. Therefore, in my opinion there is only one philsophy in this world, the philsophy of life! We can't possibly write or create anything we have not seen before or believed in!
Proof 1: Why do you think most aliens are humanoid? (Created in movies or books industries) It is because we have constant exposure to it and are unable to think outside of it! Even if there are aliens that aren't humanoids, don't you think that they look vaguely familiar to the animals on Earth? Why can't we have aliens in the universe that are not of soilid matter but be instead of liquid or gaseous matter?
Speculation: Which leads to this speculation, why are we unable to solve the problems of our universe and time? This is because what we are exposed to are only the tip of the iceberg the universe have to offer us and we have not fully appreciate them.
Proof 2: Don't you find that poems are mostly on what is going on around us in the world and not about the depths of unknown? We never have any poems dealing with the unknown, unless it is the frustration of dealing with the unknown and whatsoever.
Speculation 2: Have you ever wondered why are there feelings in us that cannot be described with words? Are they really indescribeable or just a new sensation that we have not put into words?
Proof 3: Stories are always said to be appealing to us as it gives us a revenue to escape. But is it really a form of escape or just a moment to fully appreciate a person's life experiences within the book, no matter how subtle to make us think like him and feel like him...thus making us humbled.
Speculation 3: Do we really need biiks to survive? Definately not! But the role of books is not for survival but instead in understanding one's position and to fully set your mind thinking without the trouble of going through an experience that you might never want to go through!
So yes! J R R Tolkien's The Silmarillion is very similar to The Holy Bible just as his experiences are similar to his books! Why do you think that writers say that they have left a part of themselves in the book?
but I would like to just say it is impossible to write a story without references to anything related to our life and what we know. It is almost impossible. Why do you think we are able to relate to stories, songs, poems or other literary works? They are created by humans who depend on their experience, imagination and everyday life to come out with it. Therefore, in my opinion there is only one philsophy in this world, the philsophy of life! We can't possibly write or create anything we have not seen before or believed in!Proof 1: Why do you think most aliens are humanoid? (Created in movies or books industries) It is because we have constant exposure to it and are unable to think outside of it! Even if there are aliens that aren't humanoids, don't you think that they look vaguely familiar to the animals on Earth? Why can't we have aliens in the universe that are not of soilid matter but be instead of liquid or gaseous matter?
Speculation: Which leads to this speculation, why are we unable to solve the problems of our universe and time? This is because what we are exposed to are only the tip of the iceberg the universe have to offer us and we have not fully appreciate them.
Proof 2: Don't you find that poems are mostly on what is going on around us in the world and not about the depths of unknown? We never have any poems dealing with the unknown, unless it is the frustration of dealing with the unknown and whatsoever.
Speculation 2: Have you ever wondered why are there feelings in us that cannot be described with words? Are they really indescribeable or just a new sensation that we have not put into words?
Proof 3: Stories are always said to be appealing to us as it gives us a revenue to escape. But is it really a form of escape or just a moment to fully appreciate a person's life experiences within the book, no matter how subtle to make us think like him and feel like him...thus making us humbled.
Speculation 3: Do we really need biiks to survive? Definately not! But the role of books is not for survival but instead in understanding one's position and to fully set your mind thinking without the trouble of going through an experience that you might never want to go through!
So yes! J R R Tolkien's The Silmarillion is very similar to The Holy Bible just as his experiences are similar to his books! Why do you think that writers say that they have left a part of themselves in the book?
Quote:
This is NOT the original unabridged version of the bible as you say. It is the bible fused with mythologies and paganistic beliefs.
This is NOT the original unabridged version of the bible as you say. It is the bible fused with mythologies and paganistic beliefs.
I'm sory it is the origonal version and still exists in the Torah, which I think you will find the bible is a ddescendent of. Being that Judaism isn't a pagan belief system ie. they don't worship the Sun or the moon, I think you will find it is quite right.
Quote:
Could you explain more about the Celtic mythology and the Irish Bible Ross, I find that interesting.
Could you explain more about the Celtic mythology and the Irish Bible Ross, I find that interesting.
Certainly, The celtic peoples of the British Isles were a hardy people to convert to christianity especially in Ireland, so when St Patrick went over there and started to fuse the celtic belief structures into christianity, hence Satan now being represented as a goat like beast instead of an angel, this scism in the christian belief structure actually was so different that at one point the Catholic church actually had to pope's one in the Vatican and one in Ireland. This lead to many problems so in the end they unified into one church again with the pope based in the vatican but it meant that they had to adopt many of the celtic belief structures into the religous sytem. The Galic speaking catholic people of the British Isles still in alot of places follow the Irish churches Bible!
Quote:
I'm sory it is the origonal version and still exists in the Torah, which I think you will find the bible is a ddescendent of. Being that Judaism isn't a pagan belief system ie. they don't worship the Sun or the moon, I think you will find it is quite right.
I'm sory it is the origonal version and still exists in the Torah, which I think you will find the bible is a ddescendent of. Being that Judaism isn't a pagan belief system ie. they don't worship the Sun or the moon, I think you will find it is quite right.
This came a little late, but I thought I should still correctthis misconception.
The legend of Lilith does not exist in the Torah. It exists rather in the Midrash, which is a collection of Hebrew legends, and the Talmud, which is a Hebrew text written by rabbis as a type of written interpretations of oral traditions associated with the Torah.
The rabbis drew from a wealth of mythology provided by their Mesopotamian neighbors, primarily the Canaanites, the Sumerians, and the Greeks. Each of these cultures has, in their respective pantheons, a goddess who fits the basic description of Lilith.
Right you are, Erkenbrand; I would only add that the Talmud dates from the time of the Babylonian Captivity and was heavily influenced by Persian mythology, just as Zoroastrianism, which arose, at least according to its adherents, at around the same time has Jewish influences. Personally, I think this is a rich field of inquiry, if we're careful to observe site rules. The final statement on whether the Silmarillion has ties to the Bible is Tolkiens.
When re-opening long since buried threads, please observe our rules about religious discussion. Religious discussion is only permitted here if it bears direct significance to a Tolkien discussion. Neither of the above two posts have anything at all to do with Middle Earth at all as they are just discussing real world religion (although I suspect Erkenbrand's post was written before we implimented the "no-religion" rule).Being a multi-cultural site, we found religious and political discussions invariably led to upsets, so with good reason chose to ban such discussions from this forum. If I continue to find such posts I will begin deleting them without warning.