am I totally mistaken or is there no thread about this chapter yet?
in my opinion the narn is one of Tolkien's absolute masterpieces, though unfinished it may be. there are so many fascinating characters and fates and the whole story is just breathtaking. I think it's among Tolkien's best thought-out ones.Tùrin is one of my favourite Tolkien characters, he's simply fascinating and astonishing, anyway I can't help wondering at him and his story.
anybody in here who thinks about the narn in a similar way? any other thoughts?
Thread: Narn I Hîn Húrin
i prefer the story of Beren and Lúthien.
Turin was too much a loser for me, and even more since it wasn't even his fault he was one.
Turin was too much a loser for me, and even more since it wasn't even his fault he was one.
Bloody Turin and many of his aliases are covered under Characters. I found a link curently on page 2 and two more on page 5.
Hey! Turin wasn't a loser! He just happened to be the unfortunate one chosen as Fate's plaything... 
in my opinion calling him a loser is not quite what he deserves. reading the story I thought he was a most fascinating character, he always fought on, no matter what. I mean, he could have given up and committed suicide or something like that, but he didn't. he was clever, brave and merciful (yeah, not always, but mostly...) and he achieved quite a lot. hey, he killed a dragon. he shouldn't be underestimated just because he didn't become king or something like that in the end. there are already quite enough happy endings... his story is simply completely different.
I admit I'm a bit into that guy, but he's one of Tolkien's very best characters and I really like him and personally don't think he's a loser at all.
as for the other threads... I thought I had taken a look there, but I must have checked only the first page... if I have time I'll put in my two bits there, too...
I admit I'm a bit into that guy, but he's one of Tolkien's very best characters and I really like him and personally don't think he's a loser at all.
as for the other threads... I thought I had taken a look there, but I must have checked only the first page... if I have time I'll put in my two bits there, too...
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mean, he could have given up and committed suicide or something like that, but he didn't. he was clever, brave and merciful (yeah, not always, but mostly...) and he achieved quite a lot.
mean, he could have given up and committed suicide or something like that, but he didn't. he was clever, brave and merciful (yeah, not always, but mostly...) and he achieved quite a lot.
In the end, he did give up and committed suicide. From the beginning till the end, he fought against windmills.
He was just the unluckiest guy in the history of Middle-Earth, that's all.
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there are already quite enough happy endings... his story is simply completely different.
there are already quite enough happy endings... his story is simply completely different.
None of JRRT's endings are 'happy'. They're all bittersweet.
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None of JRRT's endings are 'happy'. They're all bittersweet.
Yup, even the ending of The Hobbit, where Bilbo has to spend most of his recently aquired hard-earned treasure in buying back the furnishings of Bag End.None of JRRT's endings are 'happy'. They're all bittersweet.
I don't really have a problem with Turin; he's kind of like what the Noldor would be if they'd been a single Man. Which is weird, considering his rearing. However, given what got Morgoth cheesed at Hurin in the first place, Turin was just another victim of the Doom of Mandos. Caught between the Vala and the Valar, with the Noldor and Sindar thrown in, he had no hope of escaping disaster. That said, he did better than many of the Eldar under those circumstances.
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However, given what got Morgoth cheesed at Hurin in the first place, Turin was just another victim of the Doom of Mandos.
However, given what got Morgoth cheesed at Hurin in the first place, Turin was just another victim of the Doom of Mandos.
I believe Morgoth really cheesed nothing at Húrin. No Vala had the power to 'curse' somebody, what would mean the power to steer someone's fate. Note that after he put his curse on Húrin, he quickly sent out Glaurung to pester Túrin. So much for a curse. In the end, it was only a part of Morgoth's grand design to trash Gondolin and Doriath. Morgoth messed up Húrin's son, so that the latter would become angry and give Morgoth some 'hints', i believe.
Even the Doom of Mandos wasn't instated by the Valar. All the misery that happened because of it, all happened because it was part of that branch of the possibility-tree (there we go again) set in the Music of the Ainur.
Mandos merely announced to Fëanor and Co that they were in a bit of trouble...
Well, everyone has free will in Middle Earth, but that includes the Valar, and none of them was greater than Morgoth. The incident with Beleg certainly wasn't Turins choice, or the separation from his mother and sister/wife with all the misery that caused. If you factor in "Mogoths Ring" the chance that Morgoth took a direct hand increases. And, of course, there's another point: if Morgoth didn't have the power to back up his words, he wouldn't have set Hurin to watch his family be destroyed. It's that fate vs. desitiny thing again: Turin couldn't escape destruction, but he got to pick the manner of his doom. Granted that flies in the face of my "nothing is destined, but some things are fated" but I didn't write the Quenta Silmarillion.
I've just read Morgoth's Ring and well,it throws light on a lot of things in the Sil. Let's just say that Morgoth was the real cause of all this tragedy. He was the one who made all the trouble and if there's anyone to blame it's him. He turned many fates against many of the people (feanor, turin) and uses their pride and craziness (admit it, sometimes turin was quite crazy) to achieve his own evil devices...
Narn I Hin Hurin was one of my favourite stories, it is such a tragedy.
It is so sad, I somehow feel bad that I know everything that I know while
Im reading it, if you follow me.
It is so sad, I somehow feel bad that I know everything that I know while
Im reading it, if you follow me.
The story of Turin bothered me the first time I read the Silmarillion. It still bothers me when I think about it. I'd like to post something brilliant but all I have is a question. I see many posts saying that Turin was a great character, and all that jazz -- but does this story not "bother" anyone else's sensibilities? I wish there was something more to it -- after reading the end of his part in the story, I felt like saying "how pointless!"
Just what did Turin achieve to make his mention in UT and the Silmarillion so important as not to be pointless...
1. He killed Glaurung, the father of dragons.
2. He tied up Melkor's forces and kept several important passes open for many a year.
3. He inspired Finrod to change his tactics from hide and shoot to stand and fight. Not the best of decisions because it brought down Finrod's kingdom. Its a bad point, but very important.
4. The whole episode was for Hurin's benefit. Watching the curse play itself out on his family was aimed at driving him mad. It worked, and once released he led Morgoth's forces directly to Gondolin. In effect, that is the whole point of Turin. He was a good guy, but the whole point to the story is the part he inadvertantly played in bringing about the fall of Gondolin.
1. He killed Glaurung, the father of dragons.
2. He tied up Melkor's forces and kept several important passes open for many a year.
3. He inspired Finrod to change his tactics from hide and shoot to stand and fight. Not the best of decisions because it brought down Finrod's kingdom. Its a bad point, but very important.
4. The whole episode was for Hurin's benefit. Watching the curse play itself out on his family was aimed at driving him mad. It worked, and once released he led Morgoth's forces directly to Gondolin. In effect, that is the whole point of Turin. He was a good guy, but the whole point to the story is the part he inadvertantly played in bringing about the fall of Gondolin.
Túrin and Húrin were merely Morgoth's pawns, whom he used to annihilate both Nargothrond and Doriath, and getting an idea of the whereabouts of Gondolin. That was their onely use, really.
Morgoth gladly sacrificed his dragon in order to achieve this. After all, he was breeding a whole armada of flying dragons - and compared to Ancalagon the Black, Glaurung was a harmless little lizard.
So no, I wouldn't really consider Túrin's actions to be pointless. I'd call them hopeless.
Morgoth gladly sacrificed his dragon in order to achieve this. After all, he was breeding a whole armada of flying dragons - and compared to Ancalagon the Black, Glaurung was a harmless little lizard.
So no, I wouldn't really consider Túrin's actions to be pointless. I'd call them hopeless.
I agree about the not pointless but hopeless thing. Turin just did everything wrong because Morgoth had planned everything out for him, and well, let's say that it's not exactly a happy thing to be under a curse of Morgoth, or any Vala (the Noldor suffered a good deal under the curse of Mandos), and no matter how you resist it it will never go away until you die of course. But it's not pointless because it plays a part in history and lays a foundation for later events (such as Hurin bringing the Nauglimar to Thingol) that affect those who are not under the yolk of the Valar (though perhaps under the yolk of Fate).
When we are talking about Narn ....... how is it that there is nothing here about the upcoming publishing of "The Children of Hurin " ....
I know that I can't wait to get my hands on that book......
Sorry just saw that there is a thread about it.....
I know that I can't wait to get my hands on that book......
Sorry just saw that there is a thread about it.....