In the special edition of ROTK...the witch king breaks Gandalf's staff...then when Gandalf is leaving Middle Earth..he has it again.
When did he get it back?
I'm sure I know the answer...just can't think of it right now...
Thread: Gandalf's staff
This is one of the worst things about that last move, Extended Edition, and it is my pet peeve of all time. Gandalf's staff broken by a mortal! It never happened in the book at all, so of course there was no problem with Gandalf then having his staff in hand at the Grey Havens. But in the movie, I asked (in the review I did) how he got it back--gorilla glue? Staffs-R-Us? The wizards' store at Amazon? It's just another example of PJ departing too far from the book. The original confrontation of Gandalf v. Angmar at the gate would have been compelling enough.
the wraiths arent mortals
But the Nazgul are men, nevertheless. They are the wraiths of men, not elves, not Maiar, etc. So the idea that he can break Gandalf's staff is ludicrous. Tolkien didn't want that kind of a confrontation anyway, or he would have finished the actual meeting at the Gate differently.
I admit that the Witchking (not Angmar - that is the name of his realm but I know what you mean) could not have broken Gandalf's staff but its not a luicrous concept.
If we take them in the original states the idear that a Man (which the Witchking is becuase Elves and Dwarves cannot turn into wraiths) could break some powerful item of an Ainur is absurd. BUT take these into consideration:
Gandalf was confined to phisical form in the world Without and could not extend his powers to there full potential.
The Witchking was a great man in his time. If Glorfindel could defeat a Balrog which are Maiar then its not hard to believe that a great man could, at least, stand a chance of doing the same.
The Witchking had huge amounts of power given to his original supply by Sauron (who was undoubtedly more powerful than Gandalf in his original state before or after he made the Ring) making him far more dangerous. For example when Gandalf held off the Wraiths at weathertop the Witchking was clearly a defeatable foe. But by the end of the War of the Ring he had grown even greater. He also seems to grow greater as his master grows in power also.
As I say its doubtful the WK could defeat Gandalf but its not a ludicrous concept.
If we take them in the original states the idear that a Man (which the Witchking is becuase Elves and Dwarves cannot turn into wraiths) could break some powerful item of an Ainur is absurd. BUT take these into consideration:
Gandalf was confined to phisical form in the world Without and could not extend his powers to there full potential.
The Witchking was a great man in his time. If Glorfindel could defeat a Balrog which are Maiar then its not hard to believe that a great man could, at least, stand a chance of doing the same.
The Witchking had huge amounts of power given to his original supply by Sauron (who was undoubtedly more powerful than Gandalf in his original state before or after he made the Ring) making him far more dangerous. For example when Gandalf held off the Wraiths at weathertop the Witchking was clearly a defeatable foe. But by the end of the War of the Ring he had grown even greater. He also seems to grow greater as his master grows in power also.
As I say its doubtful the WK could defeat Gandalf but its not a ludicrous concept.
I do not believe any one including the Witch King could defeat Gandalf, especially after his resurrection. Gandalf was powerfilled only second to Saruman and then ahead of him after Saruman's defeat and the subsequent breaking of his staff by Gandalf at Isengarde.
It says clearly that this angelic being came with his full powers shrouded, he was not to use them except in extreme emergency situations, but he could use them. So I don't believe that the Witchking could do that whatsoever.
It says clearly that this angelic being came with his full powers shrouded, he was not to use them except in extreme emergency situations, but he could use them. So I don't believe that the Witchking could do that whatsoever.
Sauron was more powerful than either Gandalf. Also your forgetting that after the Balrogs defeat the Witchking was the powerfullest being in Arda, save the Istari. He may have been able to put up more of a stand than people give him credit for. He probabaly couldn't have defeated Gandalf admittedly but its not impossible.
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So I don't believe that the Witchking could do that whatsoever.
So I don't believe that the Witchking could do that whatsoever.
Of course the fiend couldn't do that to Gandalf the White. The idea alone is laughable.
He wouldn't even be able to break Gandalf the Grey's staff; note that Gandalf the Grey fought off 5 Nazgūl alone on Weathertop and defeated a Balrog.
The Nazgūl's only power is fear; (s)he who does not fear them, cannot be defeated by them - granted, though, if this person possesses the necessary combat prowess. Did Gandalf fear the Nazgūl? I think not.
Extrapolating from this, Aragorn would also have been able to defeat the Witch-King of Angmar with Andśril.
On a less serious note, the Witch-King was beaten by a GIRL, for Pete's sake... so he's clearly a weenie who would stand no chance whatsoever against the Wizard of wizards. So why the argument?
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On a less serious note, the Witch-King was beaten by a GIRL, for Pete's sake... so he's clearly a weenie who would stand no chance whatsoever against the Wizard of wizards. So why the argument?
On a less serious note, the Witch-King was beaten by a GIRL, for Pete's sake... so he's clearly a weenie who would stand no chance whatsoever against the Wizard of wizards. So why the argument?
Because, it is more civilized than going to a football game and acting like a hooligan; though there are some (your's truly not in their number) who might consider that to be more fun.
Yes...it was a strange thing to put in the movie, I mean..it made Gandalf look really weak.
But here's another question...in the original version of the movie, does Gandalf just all of a sudden not have his staff? I really don't remember...
Was Saurman more powerful than the Wraiths?
But here's another question...in the original version of the movie, does Gandalf just all of a sudden not have his staff? I really don't remember...
Was Saurman more powerful than the Wraiths?
In the theatrical version, Gandalf is without his staff for the last part of the battle of the Pelennor, and more obviously when they go to attack the Morannon. In such a place you'd expect him to have it. Then inexplicably he has it again at the end. Very bad continuity.
Well maybe they didn't expect to have so many details-watching fans!!
At the Moranon, I think the movie's Gandalf was only wielding Glamdring. Remember he wasn't supposed to use his supernatural powers in any of the fights and didn't, except against the Nazgul where he shot light beams at them. Probably the Witchking only broke his staff; but didn't remove its power; and after the War was over the craftsmen of Gondor carved a new piece of wood to hold the original magic crystal. Well, this might have been PJ's thinking, even if it was lame.
And don't forget: Gandalf was also staff-less when Gwaihir rescued him from the Tower of Orthanc; and again when he rescued him from Durin's Tower after the battle with the Balrog. So from whence came all those replacements? Huh, tell me that; or tell me once again I've got in my facts all wrong.
And don't forget: Gandalf was also staff-less when Gwaihir rescued him from the Tower of Orthanc; and again when he rescued him from Durin's Tower after the battle with the Balrog. So from whence came all those replacements? Huh, tell me that; or tell me once again I've got in my facts all wrong.
No, you are right, Grondy. The movie has Gandalf leave without his staff from Orthanc. In the book, we are shown that scene indirectly, so we assume Gandalf brought all his belongings on the flight. In the movie, Gandalf drops his staff when the Balrog's whip catches him--and that's the last we see of the old staff. In the book, his staff burst asunder from the impact of striking the bridge with it. So when he comes back from death with a new staff, that makes sense because he himself broke the old one. But this thing about the new staff does not make sense.
I assume my last post was deleted becuase I gave too many compelling points to consider regarding Gandalf vs the WK?
We only delete posts which clearly are against the rules, and we usually leave a warning of some kind either on PM, in the edited post and/or in a post below. If one of us did delete your post, then it was because you deserved it.
I assume your post is either one of those above or you never actually posted it. You wouldn't be the first to loose a post, but you would be the first to blame the Council for it.
I assume your post is either one of those above or you never actually posted it. You wouldn't be the first to loose a post, but you would be the first to blame the Council for it.
Well I suppose I cannot say conclusively but I did check to see if my post had registered on this thread and it had right under Thorins last post. It contained only information relating to this topic and was perfectly family-friendly. I checked my PMs and there is none there.
I suppose we will never know. I would have thought there would be some kind of log entries on all deleted messages in which the CM could check afterwards though...
I suppose we will never know. I would have thought there would be some kind of log entries on all deleted messages in which the CM could check afterwards though...
Now that is strange... Maybe the server had a hick-up? I believe we did loose a handfull of posts some time ago, if I remember correctly. Tarrant (the previous owner) didn't include a deleted messages log when he programmed this forum.
I guess you'll just have to post it one more time. It's not fun to have to rewrite a post, but I doubt it will vanish twice.
I guess you'll just have to post it one more time. It's not fun to have to rewrite a post, but I doubt it will vanish twice.
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So from whence came all those replacements? Huh, tell me that; or tell me once again I've got in my facts all wrong.
So from whence came all those replacements? Huh, tell me that; or tell me once again I've got in my facts all wrong.
Well, 'whence' = from where, hence 'from whence' is a tautology... your English teacher must be rolling in his grave!
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Now that is strange... Maybe the server had a hick-up? I believe we did loose a handfull of posts some time ago, if I remember correctly.
Now that is strange... Maybe the server had a hick-up? I believe we did loose a handfull of posts some time ago, if I remember correctly.
We did even lose a couple of entire accounts! Sweet, sweet memories...
Must have been a delayed error in the system or something.
Anyway All my post was stating was that assumting that Gandalf's staff breaking is ludicrous on the sole facts that he is a Maiar whilst the WK is a man is very slack.
Gandalf was bound from using his full power,
Glorfindel slayed a Balarog just with his helm and no magical abilities,
Gandalf died fighting the balrog,
The WK was excessively more powerful at the siege of Pellenor than at Weathertop becuase as Sauron's dominion grew more great so did the WK's power,
The WK has large amounts of power given to him by Sauron.
All these facts should lead you to deduce that it was still unlikely that the WK could defeat Gandalf but not impossible and certainly not 'laughable'. The WK was after all the most powerful being in Arda after Sauron and the Istari.
Anyway All my post was stating was that assumting that Gandalf's staff breaking is ludicrous on the sole facts that he is a Maiar whilst the WK is a man is very slack.
Gandalf was bound from using his full power,
Glorfindel slayed a Balarog just with his helm and no magical abilities,
Gandalf died fighting the balrog,
The WK was excessively more powerful at the siege of Pellenor than at Weathertop becuase as Sauron's dominion grew more great so did the WK's power,
The WK has large amounts of power given to him by Sauron.
All these facts should lead you to deduce that it was still unlikely that the WK could defeat Gandalf but not impossible and certainly not 'laughable'. The WK was after all the most powerful being in Arda after Sauron and the Istari.
One needs to separate 'facts' from 'conjecture'. Pray tell, what do High Elves & Balrogs have to do with Nazgūl, who are mere wraiths of men?
What you are saying is "The Witch-King can possibly beat Gandalf, because Gandalf was defeated by a Balrog and Glorfindel killed a Balrog", as if there's a transitive property here : Glorfindel defeats a Balrog (also note that Ecthelion killed Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs, with his helmet), Gandalf beats a Balrog (like all Balrogs are equal), hence Glorfindel = Gandalf?
Nothing can be extrapolated from the actions of High Elves & Balrogs on the Witch-King of Angmar, since they are *not* even of the same race. Nothing is known of the relation between the Witch-King and Balrogs or High Elves, except that for instance Glorfindel and others did not fear Nazgūl.
What cąn be extrapolated is, that since Gandalf the Grey had already subdued five Nazgūl on Weathertop, and had became more powerful after his rebirth as Gandalf the White (or rather, his form was less shrouded than his previous form; he was perhaps able to use his full power), the Witch-King would again be subdued, especially when taking into account that it took merely a stab from a Hobbit and a thrust from a Lady to finish off the fiend.
"All the power from Sauron" that according to you was turned to the Witch-King does not matter at all *if* we follow your "Balrog-Glorfindel-Gandalf" conjecture - since Sauron had been defeated numerous times in the First and Second Age, by Lśthien, Hśan and Elendil + Gil-galad, his power was negligible.
And again, the only power of the Nazgūl was fear; fear them not, and you kill them by sticking a Nśmenoran blade in their unseen gut.
Hence, indeed, the idea of the Witch-King even remotely posing more than a slight nuisance to Gandalf the White/the Grey, is derisory at best.
I'm glad I didn't see the Extended Edition!
What you are saying is "The Witch-King can possibly beat Gandalf, because Gandalf was defeated by a Balrog and Glorfindel killed a Balrog", as if there's a transitive property here : Glorfindel defeats a Balrog (also note that Ecthelion killed Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs, with his helmet), Gandalf beats a Balrog (like all Balrogs are equal), hence Glorfindel = Gandalf?
Nothing can be extrapolated from the actions of High Elves & Balrogs on the Witch-King of Angmar, since they are *not* even of the same race. Nothing is known of the relation between the Witch-King and Balrogs or High Elves, except that for instance Glorfindel and others did not fear Nazgūl.
What cąn be extrapolated is, that since Gandalf the Grey had already subdued five Nazgūl on Weathertop, and had became more powerful after his rebirth as Gandalf the White (or rather, his form was less shrouded than his previous form; he was perhaps able to use his full power), the Witch-King would again be subdued, especially when taking into account that it took merely a stab from a Hobbit and a thrust from a Lady to finish off the fiend.
"All the power from Sauron" that according to you was turned to the Witch-King does not matter at all *if* we follow your "Balrog-Glorfindel-Gandalf" conjecture - since Sauron had been defeated numerous times in the First and Second Age, by Lśthien, Hśan and Elendil + Gil-galad, his power was negligible.
And again, the only power of the Nazgūl was fear; fear them not, and you kill them by sticking a Nśmenoran blade in their unseen gut.
Hence, indeed, the idea of the Witch-King even remotely posing more than a slight nuisance to Gandalf the White/the Grey, is derisory at best.
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So when he comes back from death with a new staff, that makes sense because he himself broke the old one. But this thing about the new staff does not make sense.
So when he comes back from death with a new staff, that makes sense because he himself broke the old one. But this thing about the new staff does not make sense.
I'm glad I didn't see the Extended Edition!
My point with the Balrog was thus:
Someone said that Gandalf killed a Balrog so that must make him some almighty being or something. What I was stating was that Glorfindel slayed a Balrog and he was not an angelic being, just a firstborn, though mighty amoung them. Now as we know the WK was probabaly one of the 'great Lords of Numenor' which also would make him mighty (perehaps not quite as much as Glorfindel but still). Therefore if the WK could stand a chance of fighting a Balrog then he could also stand a chance of facing Gandalf becuase Gandalf the Grey and the Balrog were pretty equal.
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Yet now under the Lord of Barad-dūr the most fell of all his captains is already master of your outer walls, said Gandalf. King of Angmar long ago, Sorcerer, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgūl, a spear of terror in the hand of Sauron, shadow of despair.
Then, Mithrandir, you had a foe to match you, said Denethor.
Clearly Gandalf rates the WK very high in power and obviously Denethor does to. And does this quote seem to indicate that Gandalf thought of the WK as 'laughable'??
And as I have already explained the WK and the other wraiths on weathertop did not exactly need to kill Gandalf - they were after the Ring - not him.
At the battle of Pellenor the Witchking was prepared and had grown great enough to face Gandalf:
"The Nazgūl screeched and swept away, for their Captain was not yet come to challenge the white fire of his foe."
As we see here the WK was NOT YET ready to race his foe. His power was growing all the time. By the time the battle was begun he stood a chance (all be it very small) of fighting Gandalf.
And as for your implications that Sauron was less powerful than Gandalf becuase he had been thwarted by various people over the ages is flawed by this quote:
"To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coėval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Olórin was his name. But of Olórin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf." UT
And this quote:
"'Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord." LOTR
Someone said that Gandalf killed a Balrog so that must make him some almighty being or something. What I was stating was that Glorfindel slayed a Balrog and he was not an angelic being, just a firstborn, though mighty amoung them. Now as we know the WK was probabaly one of the 'great Lords of Numenor' which also would make him mighty (perehaps not quite as much as Glorfindel but still). Therefore if the WK could stand a chance of fighting a Balrog then he could also stand a chance of facing Gandalf becuase Gandalf the Grey and the Balrog were pretty equal.
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Yet now under the Lord of Barad-dūr the most fell of all his captains is already master of your outer walls, said Gandalf. King of Angmar long ago, Sorcerer, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgūl, a spear of terror in the hand of Sauron, shadow of despair.
Then, Mithrandir, you had a foe to match you, said Denethor.
Clearly Gandalf rates the WK very high in power and obviously Denethor does to. And does this quote seem to indicate that Gandalf thought of the WK as 'laughable'??
And as I have already explained the WK and the other wraiths on weathertop did not exactly need to kill Gandalf - they were after the Ring - not him.
At the battle of Pellenor the Witchking was prepared and had grown great enough to face Gandalf:
"The Nazgūl screeched and swept away, for their Captain was not yet come to challenge the white fire of his foe."
As we see here the WK was NOT YET ready to race his foe. His power was growing all the time. By the time the battle was begun he stood a chance (all be it very small) of fighting Gandalf.
And as for your implications that Sauron was less powerful than Gandalf becuase he had been thwarted by various people over the ages is flawed by this quote:
"To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coėval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Olórin was his name. But of Olórin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf." UT
And this quote:
"'Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord." LOTR