Sauron was a Maia, an Ainu of lesser degree than the Valar, originating in Aman. Each Maia was associated with usually one or two Valar, living under them; in Sauron's case it was Aulë (I think).

Maiar are, in essence, as are the Valar, spirits, with no permanent physical form; they could exist without ever taking shape if they so wished. Sauron, like most other Ainur, choose a human form when he could. (It aided him greatly in bringing about the Downfall of Numenor and corrupting Men to his cause.) At the time of LOTR, Sauron still didn't have enough energy from his and Morgoth's last defeat to take a physical form, which leads me to believe that the Eye was not a physical manifestation of Sauron, but merely a seeing tool that he used, like a Palantir (although he also possessed one of them).

So there's your answer: He was a spirit, choosing the form of a man when he needed it; the eye was not him.

Thanx Pat! *hugs him*
LOL, Val. that happens all the time. Dont ya hate it?

*bows infront of Aulë
dont hurt me sire. I grovel at your feet!
*grovelgrovel* see?

Nope! Refer to Peredhil's post above (its the first one!). That'll answer your question. Sauron is a spirit, a Maia, and he was able to take any form before the Ring was cut from his hand in the Battle of Dagorlad. He could have taken the form of an elf sometime in hid lifetime but essentially he was just a morphing spirit!

Well, I believe that the Eye is the Palantir and the Palantir is the Eye. The Palantir which the Sauron possessed was obviously used by Sauron to have a free tour of Middle-Earth sitting right there in his home, the Barad-Dur.

So what I think is that the Palantir through which Sauron watched has been symbolised as the Eye. Explains why he only kept "an eye" on the world and not two. He had only one Palantir with him.

This is what JRRT wrote about Sauron in Letters :


Hence, no huge floating eye indeed.

QED

Virumor's just above quote about Sauron's body is correct, but there was still an Eye. Tolkien's description of the Eye in 'The Mirror of Galadriel' , Chapter 7, Book II, FotR is what PJ moved from the palantir to the top of the tower and let everyone see it.
That being so, the Eye that Frodo felt when he was wearing the Ring on Amon Hen (the 'Hill of the Eye of the Men of Numenor), was most likely Sauron looking through the palantir; the one that had been transferred from Osgiliath to Barad-dur. And this Eye could only be perceived from afar, if one was using a magically endowed object such as another palantir, Galadriel's mirror, or the Ring.

I think that Saurons eye was indeed the palantir of Mordor, which means he was constantly looking through the palantir which is why whenever anyone else used a palantir he was seen within it

I don't think that Sauron was constantly looking in the Palantir when his Eye was searching. I think Sauron just found a way to use a Palantir by not looking in it, but by means of his will. So that he didn't have to look into the Palantir constantly. The Eye would then be some sort of "mental avatar" Sauron uses when using the Palantir.

Anyway, it's beyond any doubt that Sauron was NOT a huge eyeball tossing and turning on top of a tower. My previous JRRT quote already proved that. Sauron had the form of a human of tall stature.

He wasn't some sort of cyclope.

from ROTK:





If you compare this two quotes, it indeed seems plausible that Sauron's Eye has to do with a Palantir, as Frodo sees a red beam of light which could originate from a Palantir : at least the one Denethor had transmits light.

But the top quote seems to point out that the Eye could indeed be something visible, some kind of "window" in the form of a huge Eye maybe (this window-thingy can be seen in a Ted Nasmith painting of the Dark Tower) : it's described that Frodo sees a flicker of a 'piercing Eye'. Maybe the Eye of Sauron is a kind of mental telescope, an instrument of Sauron's will used to continually search for his Ring and look at what his enemies are doing.

Umm, small correction here, the palantir that resided in Osgiliath is listed as being lost in T.A. 1437 in the Anduin when Osgiliath was burned during the civil war of the Kin-strife (appendices of ROTK, page 405). The palantir that Sauron used was called the Ithil-Stone, and was captured in T.A. 2002 by Sauron’s forces in the fall of Minas Ithil.

Btw, if anyone reading this is interested in more on the Palantiri, check out this link,
Tracking the Palantiri





Before I go any further, I would like to say specifically to Virumor that I am in no way trying to attack your opinion, or single you out. I just don’t agree with some of the statements made, and I would be posting the following response anyway regardless of who had made the statements.

Now with that said, I don’t think that the Eye was sitting there on top of Barad-dur all "lighthouse" style either (like in the films), but I’ve personally done a tremendous amount of research on Sauron (more than anyone else I have yet to come across), and there is a incredible amount of information to support that Sauron’s main physical form during the Third Age was that of a gigantic eye.

I think there is conclusive proof of this in many parts of the texts in Lord Of The Rings, The Silmarillion, and in other credible, documented published sources, and I’ll list a few here. The best example probably comes from FOTR, on pgs. 408-409, in The Mirror Of Galadriel chapter,



A little further down on the same page is the classic quote,

.

It’s interesting to note that Tolkien always used capitalization when referring to the Eye. To me, the constant use of capitalization throughout the texts by the Author in this case, somewhat implies a physical form, although I realize this point is debatable.

Here’s what some other sources who have all published works on Tolkien have to say in regards to Sauron’s shape, this first one comes from Robert Foster’s Complete Guide To Middle Earth,



Here is another bit from The Magical Worlds Of The Lord Of The Rings by David Colbert,



Another one from The Tolkien Companion by Tyler,



Here’s another example from David Day’s Tolkien The Illustrated Encylopedia,



Again, all of the definitions listed here support that the Eye was Sauron in physical form. For anyone who wishes to read more on this subject there is a great thread on Sauron in this section already. Here’s the link,

Sauron

Also included in that thread is a thoroughly researched essay that I did a few years back on Sauron’s physical form where I set out to offer conclusive proof that the Eye was in fact Sauron manifested into physical shape, and not just a palantir, or some kind of tool of Sauron’s, and also to at least prove conclusively that Sauron, (from the end of the Second Age on) could not take physical shape until around 2060 of the Third Age.

Anyone wishing to read that can find it by following this next link, and then scroll down to the second post. Word of warning though, it is a long post, and will probably take you 10 to 20 minutes to read depending on how fast you are, but it’s well worth it for anyone wanting to examine this issue a bit further.

shortcut to Elfstone post on Sauron

Personally, I uphold Virumor's point of view about Sauron's appearance. Sauron was definitely not in the form of a huge fireball-ish eye. He had the stature of a man, a normal person being during the later years.

The idea of an Eye is basically (in my opinion) connected to the palantir through which Sauron used to gain news about the happenings in the Middle-Earth. Whenever he needed to see something he looked into the palantir and at that time it can be said that the palantir can be thought of as an "eye" of Sauron.

So if Frodo thought that he saw a great "eye" looking at him when he had worn the ring on the hill top of Amon Hen (was that its name?), he probably perceived Sauron trying to locate the rings position while looking through the palantir. I hope that serves as an explanation!

I don’t disagree with what JRRT says in the quote you mentioned from Letter #246, I believe it wholeheartedly! In fact, I don’t ever disagree with anything JRRT says about his Ea, period! Also, the topic of whether or not Sauron could assume the form of a man has never been in question with me. If you look at exactly what I said in my previous post, I said I disagreed with some of the statements that were being made, some not all, and I also never said that the Eye was the only form he took.

For the record, in conclusion of all the research I’ve done on this topic, various sources I’ve studied, a couple of years of reflection since my initial research, and other people’s perspectives and insights, here is exactly what I personally believe to be true regarding Sauron’s physical form from the Third Age on (more or less);

After Sauron’s body was destroyed at the end of the Second Age, he did not have enough power to take a new physical shape until sometime around T.A. 2060.

The Eye was Sauron manifested into physical shape, and not just a palantir, or some kind of tool of Sauron’s.

When Sauron was gazing into the Ithil stone, he was most likely in the form of the Eye, located about three feet from the stone, thereby disproving the notion that the Eye was Sauron’s actual eyeball (see UT).

I believe it to be highly likely (from the Third Age on, because there is absolutely no debate about it up until that point) that in addition to Sauron being able to assume the manifest form of the Eye, that he also had the ability to assume the shape of a man (terrible, with black, burning skin), and that Gollum probably saw him personally during his captivity in Barad-dur.

I also believe that generally in the Third Age Sauron appeared in the form of the Eye, but if one was brought before his physical presence (as Gollum most likely was), that he appeared in the man form.

Now these are just my personal beliefs, and if anyone wants to know what my reasoning and backing for all of these beliefs are then you need to go back and look at my post on Sauron’s physical form from a couple of years ago that I left a link to in my previous post.

Look, I’m not trying to convince anyone that they have to agree with me that the Eye was Sauron in a manifested physical form. It’s just my personal opinion through many hours of research that the Eye was one of the physical forms he took. Anyone else can believe whatever they want for all I care. Again, all I’m saying is that there was an Eye, and the reason I posted was because I felt that there was an awful lot of other information that was being omitted/ignored in this thread. I also personally disagree with some of the statements made that there was no Eye, or that the Eye was the palantir, or something that was only connected with the use of the palantir, etc.



Again, I don’t disagree with what JRRT wrote in Letter #246, however, in that statement JRRT does not say exclusively that was the only form Sauron took, or could take does he? He also does not say definitively what time period he was referring to. If Tolkien would have said in Letter #246 that Sauron only took the form of a man throughout his entire existence until the destruction of the One, and that’s it, nothing else, then that statement would be definitive, and I would have accepted that three years ago when I first read that letter, end of story!

The problem I personally have with trying to take that statement and turning it into this all encompassing, generalized blanket statement is that unfortunately we don’t have the luxury of knowing the exact question Mrs. Elgar asked?

For example, how do we know that she didn’t say something like, “what was the form Sauron took before he was slain by Elendil and Gil-galad, etc?” Or how do we know that JRRT wasn’t making a generalized statement on how Sauron appeared for the majority of his existence? Maybe that’s just how JRRT wanted us to think about Sauron for the most part, and that was the easiest way to explain?

Sauron appearing in the physical form of a man for the majority of his existence would certainly be the correct way to think of him because the majority of his existence was between his creation by Eru as one of the Ainur, and the end of the 2nd Age, and during that time he did indeed appear most often in the form of a man. Again though, that has never been in question, it’s the Third Age, and the Third Age only that I’m specifically talking about. There is no doubt about anything before that. It’s my belief that when JRRT made that statement, he was speaking specifically about the form Sauron took when it was something more akin to a man.

We already know with absolute certainty that Sauron could assume other forms (from events contained in The Sil.), and the only thing we know for sure after the downfall of Numenor is that he completely lost the ability to assume any form that was fair. Also in the Third Age we only know of a handful of people that saw him in whatever form he was in, we have Frodo, Galadriel, Pippen, Aragorn, and probably Denethor and Gollum. We have no way of knowing what Pippen, Aragorn, or Denethor saw because what they saw exactly is not described. I do personally believe though from what I like to refer to as the “black” statements, that in Gollum’s case, while captive in Barad-dur he probably saw Sauron in man form, but this is still a highly debatable topic. However, in Frodo and Galadriel’s case we know that they both saw the Eye for sure!



The people I quoted Foster, Colbert, Tyler, Day, etc. are all people who are considered to be Tolkien experts. All of these people are recognized, accomplished, and have published major works concerning Tolkien’s writings. I used these sources as examples to apply some outside perspective, and to prove a point. That point (whether anyone agrees or not) was just to make anyone reading this to be aware of the fact that the general consensus out there in the world amongst recognized and accomplished Tolkien scholars is that most agree that Sauron did take the physical form of the Eye. Their collective backings for the reasoning that Sauron did take the form of an Eye are from the numerous references contained throughout Tolkien’s writings, and through their own individual research. Anyone wishing to examine further at just how these sources arrived at his or her conclusions on Sauron’s physical form during the Third Age will have to reference the works I cited on their own as it would be absurd, and far too lengthy to explain each persons reasonings, and resources here.



That’s essentially exactly what I’m saying, and why I believe that the main form he took during the Third Age was that of the Eye.

I have already given my point of view twice, with large amounts of documentation. Hence, I will not participate in any further discussion, as there shouldn't be any, really.

And yes, Turin, perhaps the biggest reason why Sauron never ever took the form of a huge Eye, is that he would completely ridiculous : instead of bowing for him in fear, every Orc and dork in Mordor would laugh their arse off.


I don't say it's impossible that Sauron ever took the form of a huge Eye - although i don't believe that -, i only say it's impossible that the Eye was his main form -- i come to this conclusion by what JRRT wrote in letter #246. As JRRT didn't speak about Sauron taking the form of an Eye, i believe it wasn't his main form.

That's good, Vee. Very true. From a psychoanalytic point of view, the eye could be seen as the harbinger of death, making us feel both immortal and mortal at the same time through our own understanding that we have a soul that may live on beyond our own mortal being (the eye seeing beyond our physical being), yet reminding us that this outer shell will die and we will no longer exist in the way we know (his threats of death and destruction). That's where the paranoid feeling comes from with the ever watchful eye. Very interesting. Hmmm...something to build on for my thesis. Thanks!

Did I say Frodo? I didn't mean Frodo. The threats of death and destruction are beyond Frodo in the book, which is what I am looking for (but it comes to incorporate Frodo as well). It's the destruction of Man and Middle Earth the way the inhabitants know it (the crisis of the self). Of course, with or without the "destruction" of Sauron, Middle Earth would never go on existing the way it used to anyway, which is good, for it's what happens to a human's life or a community's life once he/she/it faces his/her/its suppressed thoughts and deals with them.

Thanks, Vir. You got me thinking more beyond what I said, which is getting me more into thinking about this from a theoretical point of view and just how much this relates to the crisis within us all. Of course, fairytales in general prompt us to face and overcome many of our greatest fears, which is why it may be argued that the violence in them is not necessarily bad for children (now please don't pick up on this last line and think that I am promoting the violent video games and movies that are out there right now).

Sauron was a Maiar true, and he served Morgoth, the strongest of the Vaiar and was only second to him. Balrogs are also in his "family" and are one of his most feared servants. Sauron has a mass history that you can find out at the www.coucil-of-elrond.com, which has a bio on almost all characters of Middle Earth. Sauron I think, not 100% sure was a mortal man, and lost his mortal form. He taught the elves the ability to forge the ring of power, and so betrayed the elves. Sauron was defeated i think in the 3-4 age. Late 3 age probably.

MI: Sauron once was tied for second to Morgoth with a Balrog know as "The Lord of Balrogs" until that guy was slain.

I didn't think the post was that hard to understand. Sounds like Hiliathime is telling us what she (he?) knows about Sauron.

Hiliathime, if you read what has been posted earlier in this thread, I am sure you will find some things becoming a bit more clear.

I had always wondered what Sauron was. My friends would ask me and i would say i don't know, so i am glad i have finally found out, and i will tell them if they still want to know, i dout it though. Irima-Arwen

An excellent post Val. To bad we council members can't be considered for 'Post of the Whenever'. So, have a jelly baby instead.

I believe it was Sauron who showed the elves how to forge rings of power. He wanted the elves to create their rings of power so afterwards Sauron would create his own "One ring to rule them all" hence rule them all...

Or to be more precise: when Frodo, Sam, and the rest of the Fellowship, enabled the destruction of the Ring via the ultimate sacrifice by Gollum.

Planet Tolkien itself, doesn't have a set position on this one. We are all individuals, and all have our own views and opinions, rather than a single "party line". As far as HOME and UT is concerned, much of the early writings were superceeded by later drafts. It is sometimes difficult determining which bits come first and which later, but as far as I'm concerned, I try to go by what is in the Silmarillion, rather than earlier drafts contained in HOME. Much of HOME, however, did not get into the Silmarillion, and was not superceeded by newer versions. If these do not clash with what is in the Silmarillion, I like to accept them. One such story is that of the Final Battle, in which Turin slays Morgoth. This appeared in an early draft which was later re-written omiting this tale. An alternative ending was never written for the End, however, so I like to keep that particular part.

Much of the Elven culture written about in the tales included in Morgoth's Ring are very interesting too, but do not get a mention in the Silmarillion. Had JRR lived longer and actually finished the Silmarillion, would he have included these bits. The Silmarillion, after all, was pieced together by his son. Much of what JRR was working on towards the end of his writing career did not get included, even though they were the direction JRR was obviously taking the story. By this I mean the rewriting of that beautiful Sun and Moon creation theme for one more similar to that of our own world.

That said, I am going way off topic, which I believe was something about Sauron.

I Agree 110% with what Val said about believing in some of the content of the H.O.M.E. series. If it doesn't clash with The Silmarillion, then i like to believe that is what happened. Especially the part about Túrin defeating Morgoth in the final battle, after all, there aren't too many characters who suffered more, by the hand of Morgoth, as Túrin and his sister Niniel.

Maybe so, but I’d wager a good dollar that you know more than both of us put together, so obviously your opinion carries just as much weight, and is always extremely valued, and welcome (great post btw amigo)!

Again, the only question for me concerning Sauron’s form is the time period from around T.A. 2060 to the end of the Third Age (everything else is crystal clear, and definitively answered by Tolkien in various texts). Specifically, how did Sauron generally physically appear during this time period? What were the forms he took? What was the Eye, and was it a physical manifestation of his form or something else? The biggest mystery really though is what was the Eye?

Anyway, I’m actually very open to both of the ideas you and Vee have suggested concerning the Eye. Both reasoning’s are logical, and supported by certain elements in the books, so I can accept those as being valid viewpoints to consider. What I can’t accept (again) is that there was no Eye, or that the Eye was a palantir etc., all of those theories have been completely disproved.

Maybe the Eye was a physical form, maybe it wasn’t? Sadly, probably none of us will ever know with any kind of certainty. I have a feeling that perhaps maybe the only person with any kind of real understanding of exactly what the Eye was is probably Christopher Tolkien. Maybe we all need to make a pact that if any of us ever gets the opportunity to meet him, or ask him a question somehow (which isn’t very likely I know), we need to grill him on the question of the Eye!

Yes, during the encounter between Ugluk and Grishnak before the Rohirrim did them in, Ugluck said "we are the servants of Sarumen the Wise, the White Hand...". Then Grishnak called Saruman a fool for "setting up on his own with his filthy white badges" and said "the Great Eye" was on Sarumen. Later on by Selobs Lair, Shagrat called Sauron the Eye. These bits are found in TTT. And as he neared the tower of Cirith Ungol, Sam felt "the malice of the Eye of Mordor". Then when he entered and saw the bodies:- these last two bits from RotK