Here is the log from October 12th. We only managed to discuss Helm's Deep, so next week we will cover The Road to Isengard.


Start of #bilbos-study buffer: Sun Oct 12 18:37:10 2003
[16:49] * Now talking in #bilbos-study
[16:49] * ChanServ (services@darkmyst.org) has joined #bilbos-study
[16:49] * ChanServ sets mode: +o ChanServ
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Classroom. If we do not have a class discussion going on at the moment
join us in #tolkien (Rednell)'
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[17:34] Well, should we go ahead with the discussion or look
for a more suitable time?
[17:35] can we do it now?
[17:35] sure we can
[17:35] gd
[17:35] i cam on specially
[17:35] I'm game for now
[17:35] then, now it is.
[17:35] yey
[17:36] We will begin with Helm's Deep
[17:36] We had noticed often that the weather seemed to
reflect the mood of the scene.
[17:37] I think we will notice the same can be found here.
[17:37] In what direction is the company travelling?
[17:37] north west?
[17:38] yes
[17:38] How do we know they are travelling towards the west?
[17:39] the sun was coming up
[17:39] the light of the evening sun was in their eyes
[17:39] right, Grondmaster
[17:39] and it wouldn't be in their eyes unless they were
facing it
[17:41] Even though the sun was setting and the weather was
clear, why does it not have a pleasant feel to it?
[17:42] the misty mountains are shown to be ever darker and
taller
[17:42] that doesn't sound to nice
[17:42] the air was heavy
[17:42] and it was hotter than normal
[17:42] good Rawien and Grondmaster
[17:43] Darkness, "a very storm from Mordor", was closing in
behind them
[17:43] Why did Theoden decide to take his army to Helm's Deep?
[17:43] and in the morning a great storm was brewing in
the east
[17:44] he thought that no army could break the keep
[17:45] because a rider came and told them if the loss of
the Fords to a great enemy army
[17:45] correct Grondmaster.
[17:45] Did they leave Edoras with the intention of going to
Helm's Deep
[17:46] no
[17:46] they were going to the fords of isen
[17:46] they meant to reiforce the Fords I think
[17:46] where they not?
[17:46] That is correct, Grondy
[17:48] They only decided to go to Helm's Deep because Ceorl
had told them that they had lost the battle at the Fords of Isen and
Erkenbrand had headed towards Helm's Deep
[17:48] Who had built Helm's Deep?
[17:48] Helm?
[17:48] The Numenoreans?
[17:49] i dunno
[17:50] The last of the Sea-Kings of Gondor
[17:50] Then Rohan took it over and cared for it.
[17:52] There have been a couple of references to Wormtongue
in this chapter that leads me to believe that everyone was not
completely convinced of his evil treachery.
[17:52] One is a comment from one of the guards.
[17:53] that was when Gandalf rode away
[17:53] yes, Grondmaster, that was the first comment I had
noticed.
[17:54] Gandalf left with really no explanation as to why he
was leaving them to complete the journey to Helm's Deep without him.
This seemed somewhat disconcerting to the guard.
[17:55] "Wormtongue, were he here, would not find it hard to
explain"
[17:56] Did anyone notice another comment which indicated that
Wormtongue was not looked at with hatred?
[17:56] does that suggest that Grima would say something bad
against Gandalf then?
[17:57] no, I think it means that Grima would explain why he
left, if he had to do so.
[17:57] Theoden said he missed both his councilers
[17:57] yeah
[17:57] Gandalf is not known for sharing his gameplan
[17:57] yes, Grondmaster, that was the other comment that I
had noticed.
[17:58] In the far past Grima had proven his worth as a
loyal subject to Theoden
[17:58] His trechery was more recent
[17:59] I agree and I really don't think that Gandalf had
really convinced Theoden of Grima's absolute treachery. Theoden was
still willing to have Wormtongue ride into battle with him
[18:01] The fact that Grima did not could mean that he was a
coward perhaps, not necessarily a traitor, in the eyes of Rohan
[18:02] yet someone said later they has seen Grima in the
company of Orcs
[18:03] yes, but following that revelation, Theoden said that
he missed both his counsellors
[18:04] It is hard to give up a friend, we want to cut
them some slack
[18:04] but it could have been just nostalgic comment. That
he wished Grima was not so treacherous and could be there to counsel
him
[18:04] yes, that is a good point, Grondy.
[18:05] (LadyFeawen's coming in)
[18:05] What did Theoden and Aragorn see on the journey to
Helm's Deep?
[18:05] [18:05] What did Theoden and Aragorn see on
the journey to Helm's Deep?
[18:05] for noe Theoden must do with Eomer and Aragorn for
Counciling
[18:06] torches
[18:06] what was done with these torches, Rawien?
[18:06] the burning of the homesteads
[18:06] yep
[18:07] yes, something very hard for a King to see.
[18:07] (welcome, Fea)
[18:08] (thanks Rawien)
[18:08] Notice the weather at this point as we approach Helm's
Deep.
[18:09] it was dark
[18:09] why so dark, Grondmaster?
[18:09] clouds
[18:09] yes, no moon and no stars. A storm is brewing.
[18:10] and it kept getting darker
[18:11] (hey)
[18:11]
[18:11] I found at this point the friendship between Legolas
and Gimli is becoming closer and Legolas is comfortable telling Gimli
how he feels. What does he say?
[18:12] and the air was very heavy from the approaching
storm
[18:12] that he is glad to have him standing nigh
[18:12] yes
[18:13] Ok, how about pointing our a few highlights of the
Battle of Helm's Deep
[18:13] out*
[18:13] Legolas doesn't like Helms Deep
[18:14] neither does Gimli likes Fangorn forest
[18:14] They enemy broke through the Dike like water
[18:15] how did the enemy break through?
[18:15] by climbing over thier dead
[18:15] that was one way, yes
[18:16] ladders?
[18:16] yes, Rawien
[18:16] that was how they climbed the Wall
[18:17] Aragorn reported to Theoden a "devilry from Orthanc",
what was it?
[18:17] gunpowder or nitro
[18:17] Gun powder, bombs
[18:17] a 'blasting fire'
[18:18] in other words, gunpowder, yes
[18:18] "It is said that the Hornburg ahs never fallen to
assult," said Theoden, "but now my heart is doubtful.
[18:18] they opened up the channel and came through the
water course
[18:19] and they brought a battering ram up the causeway
[18:19] "...maybe I should not so rashly have ridden forth to
meet it for all the arts of Gandalf. His cousel seems not now so good
as it did under the morning sun"
[18:19] Yes, it is looking pretty grim.
[18:20] His was a normal sentiment
[18:20] How does Aragorn react?
[18:21] he says not to judge the counsel of gandalf
[18:21] He told him to be hopeful for the dawn
[18:23] Yes, "So great a power and royalty was revealed in
Aragorn, as he stood there alone above the ruined gares before the
host of his enemies, that many of the wild men paused and look back
over their shoulders to the valley and some looked up doubtfully at
the sky."
[18:24] and then Aragorn prophesied the doom of thr orcs
to their face
[18:25] Yes, and what was it that caused the Orcs to tremble?
[18:26] the Horn of Helm
[18:27] yes, the sound caused them to tremble and cover their
ears.
[18:27] and a rumor that something was behind them
[18:27] What happened next?
[18:28] then the rohirrim rode through them
[18:28] CHARGE!
[18:28] and the weather?
[18:28] the sun broke through
[18:29] yes, "the sun flared above the eastern hills and
glimmered on their spears"
[18:29] And with the sun came?
[18:29] Gandalf!
[18:29] Trees in thd vale
[18:30] and Erkenbrand
[18:30] Erkenbrand and his riders
[18:31] the Battle of Helm's Deep was victorious! And what
happened to those poor Orcs?
[18:31] doom for the Orcs
[18:31] they got buried by the trees
[18:31] Yep, they ran in the wrong direction.
[18:31] by the trees?
[18:32] That is then end of the chapter of Helm's Deep. Does
anyone have any comment to make about this chapter?
[18:32] What were those trees, Grondy?
[18:32] er.. earlier on, Aragorn and Legolas go with Eomer in
the van
[18:32] whats a van?
[18:32] Hourn
[18:33] van means front
[18:33] front part of the army
[18:33] or is it Huorn
[18:33] oh, ok
[18:33] ty
[18:34] I guess we would call it the advancing forces
[18:34] ahh
[18:34] Huorn is correct
[18:35] I think they are mobile trees
[18:35] yes, they are the trees shephered by the tree shepherds
[18:36] yes, we will, Grondmaster.
[18:36] ok
[18:36] i best get reading then
[18:36] It seems to take an hour to discuss a chapter so we
may have to cut to 1 chapter a week.
[18:36] Thanks for the class Nell
[18:36] yeah, ty Nell
[18:36] Thanks for coming everyone.

End of #bilbos-study buffer Sun Oct 12 18:37:11 2003

The log from Bilbos-study, Oct 26th.

Start of #bilbos-study buffer: Sun Oct 26 18:45:41 2003 [14:20] * Now talking in #bilbos-study
[14:20] * Topic is 'Welcome to the Planet-Tolkien Classroom. If we do
not have a class discussion going on at the moment join us in #tolkien '
[14:20] * Set by Rednell on Sun Sep 07 21:27:18
[14:20] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Rednell
[17:04] goodday all
[17:11] before we start, we should discuss if there is a
better time for everyone to meet
[17:11] today is the last sunday i can be in here
[17:11] right
[17:12] what are your weekday afternoons like, Grondy?
[17:12] I can't be here Tuesdays and Fridays
[17:12] i can be here on thursday and monday
[17:13] Monday is the language guild
[17:13] Now that quenya has moved to Tuesday, Monday is a good
possibility.
[17:13] oh
[17:13] I think it moved to Tuesday, didn't it?
[17:13] what time monday then?
[17:13] same time as this?
[17:13] I don't know
[17:13] hmm, works for me
[17:14] I do not work on Mondays
[17:14] thursday would be best for me
[17:14] Quenya hasn't been moved, not that I've heard of at
least..
[17:14] The earliest I could get in Thursday is 5:30pm. 1/2
hour later. I work until 5pm
[17:16] does that present a problem, as it is quite late in
your area, vir and Amarie
[17:16] Are they even holding Quenya any more?
[17:17] not much Nell, that would be 10:30 pm for me
[17:17] yes, but last monday it got postponed as I and pere
where the only ones there
[17:17] yes, they are. I forgot to log onto bilbos last week
before I went to work and so didn't save the log.
[17:18] well, let's try Thursday and see how that works.
[17:18] I's 6 hours between me and you Nell?
[17:18] 5
[17:18] 5, I think
[17:18] Grondy is 4 earlier than me
[17:18] it's 10pm here now
[17:19] well, shall we try this Thursday and take it from
there?
[17:19] ok
[17:20] Fine by me
[17:20] ok, let's begin today's discussion now.
[17:20] First, would anyone like to give a definition of
Flotsam and Jetsam?
[17:21] never heard about them...
[17:21] Stuff that float ashore after a storm
[17:21] if that was what you asked..
[17:21] I thinf flotsom is what you find floadting and
jetsome is what you throw in?
[17:22] yes to both Amarie and Grondy
[17:22] hmm, amarie: quick norwegian translation in pm pls
[17:22] in dutch it's different too
[17:23] flotsam is the debris from a shipwreak or as Amarie
said, stuff that floats ashore after a storm. Jetsam is thrown
overboard, usually to lighten the load.
[17:23] jetsom from to jetition
[17:23] After we discuss this chapter I will ask you why
Tolkien chose this as the title for this chapter.
[17:24] We open with the "great ones" going to discuss "high
matters", why was Aragorn not in that company, afterall, he was heir
to the throne?
[17:25] he didn't want too many ppl to know that just yet
[17:25] good point, Per
[17:25] he didn't want to leave his refound mates?
[17:25] He wanted to see how his friends were, after all
he was the leader when they were hobbit napped
[17:25] and that too, Vir
[17:26] he felt responsible for them
[17:26] There was, of course, much delight at this reunion.
[17:26] and besides he knew he would get the story from
Gandalf later anyways
[17:26] Merry certainly didn't seem to have lost his sense of
humour after all they had been through.
[17:26] they're hobbits
[17:26] so
[17:27] exactly, Virumor
[17:27] that's what hobbits are like!!
[17:27] What does Gimli notice about the Hobbits?
[17:27] taller
[17:27] they seem taller
[17:27] grew
[17:27] They are taller and have more hair/curls
[17:27] exactly
[17:27] legolamb mentions the drink of the ents
[17:27] legolas*
[17:28] Aragron asked Pippin to tell about the Ents but Pippin
seemed to have difficulty with this request. Why do you think it was
hard for Pippin to describe the Ents?
[17:29] because he ain't as wise as frodo
[17:29] doesn't find the right words
[17:29] describing Ents is like a blind man describing an
oliphaunt
[17:30] Ents come in all shapes, just like trees
[17:30] yes, It is pretty hard to describe something that is
really beyond anything you could imagine.
[17:31] and the whole experience has been somewhat
overwhelming.
[17:31] well, soon aragorn is gonna see one
[17:31] not much to compare them to other than trees
[17:31] What did the hobbits offer the company after their
meal?
[17:31] pipeweed
[17:31] pipeweed?
[17:31] pipeweed
[17:31] not just any pipeweed
[17:32] longbottom
[17:32] Longbottom Leaf, from Saruman's private stash, indicating
he had assets in the Shire
[17:32] yes, with the Hornblower brand on the barrel.
[17:32] yes, Arco.
[17:32] hints of things to come, and that spies had been
about
[17:33] "They smoked in silence for a while and the sun shone
on them..." <---- How does that scene make you feel?
[17:33] like the southener in Bree who looked like
Saruman';s men
[17:33] comfy
[17:34] bill ferny
[17:34] no the guy Bill was talking to
[17:34] very comfy. Calm after the battle and before the next
one.
[17:35] yes, Aragorn remembers that when the hobbits recall
the events leading up to the battle
[17:36] then he says som like that elrond wasn't rong in
wanting to send peregrin and meriadoc back
[17:36] Pippin starts out telling the events that unfolded
after the company parted, but it was Merry who provided the most
detail.
[17:37] What do we learn about Huorns from Merry?
[17:37] they're dangerous... very quick
[17:38] yes
[17:38] a great power in them and are able to wrap themselves
in shadow.
[17:38] they are Ents that have almost become like trees
[17:39] yes, Grondy, they have become queet and wild but can
still talk with the ents.
[17:39] How was it that the Ents and Huorns were able to
surround Isengard without Saruman's awareness?
[17:40] it was dark and cloudy? (or is there some other part...?)
[17:40] very dark and cludy
[17:41] yes, grondy
[17:41] how did they move in?
[17:41] moon was hiding and they no longer sang
[17:41] and the sound?
[17:41] they destroyed hte gates
[17:42] they are very strong etc
[17:42] rustling and creaking
[17:42] they it was 'creaking'
[17:42] rushing of the wind
[17:42] yes, exactly, just as if there was a strong wind, no
reason for Saruman to be suspicious
[17:43] But they were very patient and stood very still as
they witnessed something happening at Isengard.
[17:43] and he wasn't expecting an attack from the
mountains and was short handed
[17:43] ...and anyway, Searuman was too pre-occupied with
emptying his army to finish off the Rohirrim, rather than being
cautious and looking for Ents and Huorns
[17:43] exactly, Aroc
[17:43] arco*
[17:44] he hadn't taken them into his planning
[17:44] It seemed that Treebeard and the Huorns had different
agendas, however.
[17:44] What were they?
[17:44] ents - trees gone berserk
[17:45] the Huorns wanted to deal with Orcs; the Ents began to
demolish Angrenost
[17:45] exactly
[17:45] Huorns were after orcs, Ents were after Saruman
[17:45] the Huorns followed the Orcs as they moved south.
[17:46] That would explain what happend to the bodies of the
Orcs that were left at the edge of the forest in The Road to Isengard
[17:46] Kill the tree killers!
[17:46] How did Merry describe an angry Ent?
[17:46] or the bodies near helm's deep
[17:47] fast
[17:47] terrifying
[17:47] possitively hasty
[17:47] ahhh, yes, all except one, who was not hasty at all.
Who?
[17:49] Grondy, who let out the cry, kill the tree-killers?
[17:49] Quickbeam
[17:49] greenpeace?
[17:49] lol
[17:49] may i ask were we're up to?
[17:49] yes, grondy. and how did the Ents react to that?
[17:50] We are in chapter 9, where Merry is describing the
destruction of Isengard
[17:50] about nine or ten pages in
[17:51] ty
[17:51] they almost caught Saruman who had been watching
his troops leave
[17:52] almost but not quite.
[17:52] Quickbeam almst did
[17:52] "within a step or two"
[17:53] Beechbone got burned
[17:53] they seem to have lost their heads and starting
breaking stones and destroying however, they could not harm Orthnac
[17:53] But Treebeard kept his head because he had a plan
[17:54] they only broke a few flakes off the tower
[17:54] Treebeard let out a cry and what happened?
[17:54] They set a watch on Orthanc
[17:54] the waters poured forth to flood the rats out of
their holes
[17:55] there was dead silence when Treebeard let out his cry,
silent except for a shrill laugh from the tower.
[17:55] but first they dammed the Isen to get enough water
for the flood
[17:56] That was Treebeards plan which he explained to the
ents after they stopped the seige on Orthnac
[17:57] Merry felt that Saruman has been defeated at this
point. What does he think of Saruman now.
[17:59] " wizardry may have been falling off"
[18:00] he thinks he's different than Gandalf; 'not much grit'
[18:00] "not much grit"
[18:00] "not much plain courage" like Gandalf
[18:01] but Aragorn cautions Merry.
[18:01] maybe his cleverness was just settling in Isengard
[18:01] Aragorn: "No, once he was as great as his fame made him."
[18:01] yes, that is what Merry thought
[18:03] Aragorn thought even after his defeat , that only
Gandalf, Galadriel, or Elrond could be safe from his voice
[18:03] I think Aragorn wanted to let the hobbit to know
thatit is still wise to exercise caution when dealing with Saruman.
[18:04] Was the reunion with Gandalf one that Pippin expected?
[18:04] no
[18:04] why not?
[18:05] Gandalf was in a hurry to save Helm's Deep
[18:05] Pippin wanted to talk
[18:07] Pippin didn't think much of Gandalf's quick shrug off.
[18:07] "fool of a Took:
[18:08] And who else arrives at Orthnac?
[18:08] neither Treebeard nor Gandalf were surprised to
see the other at Isengard, Gandalf must have talked to Treebeard
before
[18:09] yes, I think he did in Fangorn. Gandalf knew the
hobbits were safe with Treebeard
[18:09] Grima Wormtongue
[18:09] How did a very shocked Grim try to explain his arrival?
[18:10] He had a postBody from his King
[18:10] and was he eager to deliver this postBody now?
[18:11] no, now he just wanted to get away
[18:12] So what choices was he given?
[18:12] to wait for the King or go to the tower
[18:13] and so Grima and Saruman are once again united as a
happy family.
[18:13] they deserve each other
[18:13] This chapter ends with the fellowship finishing their
stories and their smoke. One think troubles Aragorn as he smokes his
pipe. What?
[18:14] I think Virumor mentioned this earlier
[18:14] the leaf from the Southfarthing in Isengard
[18:15] yes, there had to be a connection in the Shire.
[18:15] We are now ready to go on to "The Voice of Saruman"
[18:15] two years' ago crop
[18:16] Pippin and Merry seem to still underestimate the power
of Saruman as they relish in victory. But Gandalf cautions them of
something. What?
[18:17] Don't go there with a light heart
[18:17] why not?
[18:18] he could put a spell on them
[18:18] Why does Saruman still pose a threat?
[18:18] He still has his staff and his voice
[18:19] yes, both very dangerous
[18:19] gandalf broke the staff
[18:19] only his henchmen have been concoured
[18:19] yes, he did, vir.
[18:19] so, only voice over
[18:19] snake has one tooth left
[18:19] good night *leaves*
[18:19] What about Saruman's voice?
[18:20] enchanting
[18:21] still works
[18:21] most reasonable
[18:21] seemed wise
[18:21] only gandalf, ellrond and galadriel are safe alone
with saruman
[18:21] and sauron,
[18:22] he makes them believe lke they are a bunch of rude
peasants, invading his home
[18:22] or something
[18:22] none rejected its commands without an effort of mind
and will.
[18:22] From the tower, the tone was that of a kindly heart
aggrieved by injuries undeserved.
[18:23] What does he offer Theoden?
[18:23] peace
[18:23] "The words of this wizard stand on thier heads"
[18:23] but only gandalf doesn't fall for it
[18:24] oh, not only Gandalf. Someone else brought a flash of
anger to Saruman's voice.
[18:24] aragorn
[18:25] when Saruman sweet talks to one, the others can
now see through it, he looses control of them
[18:25] Eomer calls him a liar and this angers Saruman. But
one for a moment then he turns sweet again
[18:25] He appeals to Gandalf
[18:25] "I bore you no ill-will"
[18:26] gili
[18:26] they didn't fall for it, because of gandalf's presence
[18:26] gimli*
[18:27] gandalf had narya, after all strenghtening their hearts
[18:27] that was probably when he understood he couldn't beat
Gandalf, so he made a last effort to have Gandalf join him.
[18:27] Many of the others are under the spell of Saruman's
voice. and when Gandalf rejected Saruman's "peace offering" a shadow
of doubt entered their minds.
[18:27] "He will betray us, he will go, we shall be lost"
[18:28] Sorry, that was before Gandalf rejected Saruman.
[18:28] When he did, how did Saruman's voice change?
[18:28] And Gandalf laughed at Saurman
[18:30] Did you notice the colour of Saruman's cloak when he
came out onto the balcony?
[18:30] shimering?
[18:31] no real colour to speak of.
[18:31] What did Gandalf tell Saruman of his position in the
order now?
[18:32] he said he was out of the order
[18:32] he was cast out of the order
[18:32] yes, "You have not colour now and I cast you..."
[18:32] no*
[18:33] I think that is why his cloak was no longer white.
[18:33] and out of the Council
[18:34] Saruman's final dismay came when he discovered that
Grima threw something of great importance out the window. What was it?
[18:34] I think his cloak was changed when the met in Book
II
[18:34] they*
[18:34] It was a Palantir, one of the last that still existed
[18:34] an orb
[18:34] I think you are correct Grondy. I just never took much
notice of it until Gandalf said "You have no colour"
[18:35] One of those things that sort of click after you have
absorbed what is going on.
[18:35] never noticed that
[18:36] A nice quote from Gandalf "Often does hatred hurt
itself"
[18:36] I never noticed it before reading it again this time,
Virumor.
[18:37] i don't see what the colour of his cloth has to do
with gandalf throwing him out of the order
[18:37] Aragorn earlier returned the hoobits swords too
[18:38] maybe it was just an illusion that gandalf broke by
shattering saruman's spells
[18:38] well, it seemed that the colour of their cloaks were
of significance. Gandalf the Grey became Gandalf the White and his
cloak was then white
[18:38] Virumor, that is a good point.
[18:39] yes, Grondmaster and the Elvish brooch to Pippin.
[18:39] With his staff gone and his expulsion from the order,
would Saruman still pose a threat to men?
[18:40] well galadriel clothed gandalf in white becoz she saw
he bacme wizard nr 1
[18:40] * Rawien (lightning@dm-33811.ipt.aol.com) has left #bilbos-study
[18:40] Was your flotsam point the tobacco and the jetsam
the Palantir
[18:40] well, he was busy messing around in the shire so yes
[18:40] ?
[18:40] yes, Grondy, that is exactly what I was referring to.
[18:41] thank-you for reminding me.
[18:41] Both had major contributions to the future story
[18:41] very much so.
[18:42] without the palantir minas tirith would have fallen
[18:42] Poor Grima, he had no idea what he had done
[18:42] and maybe the witchking would not have been killed
[18:42] And poor Pippin, he had no idea what he had touched.
[18:43] coz aragorn didn't make eowyn desperate etc etc
[18:43] This ends tonights discussion.
[18:43] so, it's true that hatred hurted itself
[18:43] it u look at what grima did
[18:43] Thanks for another good one Nell
[18:43] For this Thursday, we will finish off this book. So
just one chapter where we only have a couple of days.
[18:44] The Palantir for Thursday.
[18:44] ok
[18:45] I'll try to put up a notice on the Home Page
[18:45] thank-you, I really appreciate it.
End of #bilbos-study buffer Sun Oct 26 18:45:41 2003

Here is the log from Nov 6th: The Taming of Smeagol
Start of #bilbos-study buffer: Thu Nov 06 19:31:29 2003 [17:36] * Now talking in #bilbos-study
[17:36] * ChanServ (services@darkmyst.org) has joined #bilbos-study
[17:36] * ChanServ sets mode: +o ChanServ
[17:36] * ChanServ changes topic to 'Welcome to the Planet-Tolkien
Classroom. If we do not have a class discussion going on at the moment
join us in #tolkien (Rednell)'
[17:36] * ChanServ sets mode: +ntr.
[18:09] ok, let's begin.
[18:09] What is the situation we find Frodo and Sam in
as Book Four begins?
[18:10] bleak
[18:10] why is the situation bleak?
[18:10] They're wandering in circles around Emyn Muil
[18:10] book four? I'm sorry, are we talking about the
second book in TTT?
[18:10] can't get there from here
[18:10] yes aire, chapter one in the second book of TTT
[18:10] Yes Aire, we
[18:11] are*
[18:11] ok, thank you
[18:11] Book 4 Chapter 1 in Two Towers, The Taming of
Smeagol
[18:11] ok, ty for clearing that up
[18:12] yes, it is bleak as they seem to be going in
circles.
[18:12] What is the irony that Sam mentions?
[18:12] that the one place they don't want to be in, is the
exact place they are trying to reach...
[18:12] They don't want to go any closer but it's where they're
going.
[18:12] they can't get to where they don't want to, but
must go
[18:13] and where they can't got to nohow
[18:13] yep
[18:13] Why was Frod not concerned that they would not
find their way?
[18:14] He felt it was his fate to get there?
[18:14] because the ring dragged him to Mordor?
[18:14] "It is my doom, I think to go to that Shadow
younder so that a way will be found. But were good or evil shot it to
me"
[18:14] He thinks it's his 'doom' to 'go to that Shadow yonder'
[18:14] yes, exactly
[18:15] It seemed up to this point in there journey as
we noticed in previous chapters that "good" seemed to be guiding
fate's hand Frodo's quest. However, we now see that perhaps "evil"
will play a part in it.
[18:15] and he now thinks they should have left the
company earlier and gone farther to the east
[18:16] Why does Frodo think that "evil" is showing it
now?
[18:16] yes, he does, Grondy
[18:17] "Delay plays into the enemy's hands - and here
I am delayed."
[18:17] * Aire_painting is now known as Airecristiel
[18:18] What is causing them delay at this point?
[18:18] walking in circles, chasm
[18:18] not finding the right path to go
[18:18] Sam is prepared to do something about it though,
what?
[18:19] he heas got a rope
[18:20] he doesn't remember having the rope right away.
[18:20] that's because he's sam
[18:20] yes, Sam the Brave. Sam's logic was that he
should attempt to climb down the chasm first
[18:21] he actually started to climb, but frodo stopped him
didn't he?
[18:21] yes, Perwing
[18:21] dunno don
[18:21] t have the book here right now
[18:22] same here
[18:22] Sam felt the person who is the most likely to
slip should climb down first and therefore won't fall on top of Frodo.
"No sense in killin two with one fall"
[18:23] yes if sam would fall on frodo he would have been
squished
[18:23] hello
[18:23] hi mellie and ladyfeqwen
[18:24] so what are we discussing?
[18:24] and Perwing is correct, Sam did attempt to climb
down and Frodo grabbed him and hauled him back up, telling him to wait
and be patient
[18:24] Hi vir
[18:24] The Taming of Sméagol chapter, Mellie
[18:25] So Sam suggests waiting until daylight then, but
Frodo becomes strangely violent in his tone of voice.
[18:26] he feels that they don't have time for that
[18:26] or he is a nasty old hobbit
[18:26] yes, Vir. Strange since he just told Sam to be
patient
[18:26] yes,poor old sam can't do anything right
[18:27] "Delay plays into the Enemy's hands ... Every day that
passes is a precious day lost."
[18:27] thanks, Arco.
[18:28] What happens when Frodo makes the rash decision
to climb down the chasm in the dark?
[18:28] he falls down
[18:28] pass
[18:28] but not far
[18:28] right, Perwing. What do they hear?
[18:29] the scream of the nazgul
[18:29] that's why he looses his grip
[18:29] that was after sam decided to use the rope? i am
confused
[18:29] he let go of the chasm and tries to cover his ears
[18:29] sam hasn't remembered the rope yet
[18:29] how clever
[18:30] Virumor, Sam now remembers the rope so he can
"save" Frodo.
[18:30] you said it; he's Sam..
[18:30] not the brightest of hobbits, but he's essential to the
plotline and actually sees some things that brighter ppl missed.
[18:30] so when does frodo fall? when he uses the rope or does
he just get his hands on the rock?
[18:30] well he doesn' remember it before Frodo says from down
there: "you can't do nothing without a rope.."
[18:31] right
[18:31] Frodo tries to climb down without the rope first Vir
[18:31] another brilliant plan
[18:31] yes i remember now
[18:31] after he has fallen down a bit, he says that to Sam,
and sam remember he has a rope
[18:31] Frodo actually slid down because he covered his
ears to block out the screaming sound of the Nazgul
[18:32] yes
[18:32] yup
[18:32] think i already said that..
[18:32] yes
[18:33] yes, you had said that, Per
[18:34] lol,yea
[18:34] oh, I'm sorry, I haven't got that either.. I'll
look for it
[18:34] Poor Sam, he uses rope to manage their decent
but is upset.
[18:34] sam has to find a rock
[18:34] He doesn't want to leave the rope
[18:34] he has underestimated the elves
[18:34] right, Aire
[18:34] bye Arco!
[18:35] but the rope comes down by itself
[18:35] well he's in for a pleasant surprise though..
[18:35] apparently, they put their souls into everything they
make
[18:35] But not only is he concerned about losing the
rope, he is concerned about someone else using it.
[18:35] yeh
[18:35] but gollum has sticky hands and feet
[18:36] evil always finds a way
[18:36] yes, what does Tolkien compare Gollum to?
[18:36] a spider
[18:36] yes
[18:36] huuuuh
[18:36] spider with 6 legs pulled out
[18:36] reminds me of my childhood
[18:37] you had sticky hands and feet, Virumor?
[18:37] that discussion is tuesday Vir... lol
[18:37] lol
[18:37] hehe
[18:37] no i loved to pull legs out of spiders
[18:38] anyway, pls move on Nell..
[18:38] and blowing up toads
[18:38] biological terrorism
[18:38] yuck!
[18:38] off topiv
[18:38] topic*
[18:38] What is going on with Gollum?
[18:38] he follows them
[18:38] he wants his preciousssssss back
[18:39] Gollum is just following the ring, he doesn't really
care about them
[18:39] Gollum mentions "precious" often when he is
speaking in the third person.
[18:39] he does care about them : he wants to kill them
[18:40] i mean, they are just someone that stands between him
and his precious.
[18:40] strangle them because they ssttttolle it from them
[18:41] How was Sam feeling towards Gollum?
[18:41] he saw gollum as evil
[18:41] didnt trust him, wanted frodo to put Sting thru
gollum's small neck
[18:42] what happened when Sam attacked Gollum?
[18:42] sam underestimated gollum's power
[18:42] gollum defeated him, but frodo had to save his
side-kick
[18:42] by threatening to cut-throat golly
[18:44] heh, TTT is on
[18:44] so far for the quality
[18:44] How did Frodo think he could use Gollum?
[18:44] like a guide
[18:44] gollum had been in mordor before
[18:44] he thought gollum knew the way to mordor
[18:45] to use a movie quote : you know the way to Mordor
*sissy voice*
[18:45] lol
[18:45] so they tried to tie him up with that elven rope
[18:45] but it didn't work out to well
[18:46] why not, Vir?
[18:46] elvish abracadabra
[18:46] Gollum couldn't stand the ropes
[18:46] bad elvessss
[18:46] they hurt him
[18:46] elves like to hurt evil guys, apparently
[18:47] and then frodo made him swore an oath
[18:47] after he told sam to uninstall the rope
[18:48] what did he swear the oath on?
[18:48] on the precious, but frodo refused this
[18:48] tha preciousss
[18:48] because it would betray him
[18:48] yup
[18:48] exactly
[18:48] so he swore the oath of feanor
[18:49] kiddin
[18:49] besides, he made him swear that oath before he told
sam to remove the rope, just for the record..
[18:49] he kinda did pull a Feanor there Vir.
[18:49] That's right Perwing
[18:49] but why did Frodo not accept Gollum's oath on
the precious?
[18:50] because golly will never get ther ing back
[18:50] the ring*
[18:50] cause it would twist his words and betray him
[18:50] the ring ain't his posssesiion anymore
[18:50] possession*
[18:50] he could swear BY it, but not ON it in the end..
[18:51] yes, Per, why was that?
[18:51] because the Ring was too small to stand on
[18:52] ok only my own personal opinion here; cause then he
would accept Frodo as the Ring's Master, and be true to his word
[18:52] To swear on something you have to touch it.
Frodo did not want Gollum to touch the ring.
[18:52] yup
[18:53] he made him swear to "serve the precious' Master"
[18:53] all lies
[18:53] and Gollum certainly appeared to change.
[18:53] i'm not so sure he really lied vir..
[18:53] because his Deagol side had the upperhand
[18:54] yes, Vir. Tolkien writes" a change, which lasted
for some time, came over him" which would indicate that the change was
not going to last forever.
[18:54] huh?
[18:54] his Gollum side made him betray Frodo
[18:54] Deagol was his friend from before, the one he killed
and took the ring from.
[18:54] Smeagol
[18:54] that was when Gollum seemed to be very happy, almost
like a dog, and giving them fish and stuff
[18:54] I think he meant Smeagol
[18:55] Do you get the impression that Smeagol/Gollum is
a reflection of Good/Evil in one person?
[18:56] yes
[18:56] just want to make sure we are talking about the same
and that i haven't forgotten something important...
[18:56] dunno
[18:56] Smeagol wasnt good he killed deagol
[18:56] Whose words come back to Frodo when Sam wants to
kill Gollum?
[18:56] but that was because he was blinded by the ring
[18:56] Gandalf
[18:56] smeagol just thinx he will get back the ring in a
friendly way
[18:57] 's words
[18:57] Gandalfs
[18:57] gollum thinx to get the ring back by killing
[18:57] So vir, you think that Smeagol is every bit as
evil as Gollum?
[18:57] dunno
[18:57] true Vir, don't think Smeagol is like a "good-guy"
(but better than gollum-side at least)
[18:57] gollum grew out of smeagol
[18:58] the ring made the evil in smeagol grow and enlarge
[18:58] well, perhaps not good/evil, but evil/better?
[18:58] not AS evil, but certainly not all good either Nell.
[18:58] everyone has sone evil in them just as they have
some good
[18:58] and Shelob was Smeagol's idea...
[18:58] Has Gollum got any good in him then?
[18:58] yes that is true Grondy.
[18:58] this is true. Perhaps Gollum was the only way
Smeagol could deal with the evil deed he had done to gain possession
of the ring
[18:58] How is that Perwing?
[18:59] when he planned to give the hobbits to shelob
[18:59] and getting the ring back that way
[18:59] I thought that was Gollum. oh well.
[18:59] he planned this during that schizophrenic convo
[18:59] gollum is more a symbiosis of two sides
[19:00] Gollum is evil Smeagol wants to be good
[19:00] I get that impression too Grondmaster.
[19:00] good point Grondy, Smeagol just doesn't succeed too
well.
[19:00] true,
[19:00] but at least he tries
[19:00] smeagol is just confused
[19:00] Perhaps Smeagol wants to make up for the evil
deeds he did before
[19:01] he doesn't get why the ring goes to mordor
[19:01] He does only for a while as Nell said
[19:01] i always felt sorry for Smeagol,
[19:01] so gollum is able to persuade him to go to shelob
[19:01] I still think Smeagol isn't exactly good. He's no
Frodo.
[19:01] smeagol is the former river ppl side
[19:01] Frodo isn't all good either btw.
[19:01] when smeagol was with the river ppl, he was already
sneaky
[19:01] well, he could not be too good to kill his best friend
for the ring, but .... he was not evil either,
[19:01] were talking relative here not pure
[19:02] no, but he's got more good in him than Smeagol,
hasn't he?
[19:02] i think is was more of the rings influence than Smeago
being bad
[19:02] true vir. I think there was little Smeagol left
in Gollum until the capture by Frodo and Sam
[19:02] exactly Mellie
[19:02] smeagol succumbed to the ring
[19:02] yes he did
[19:02] frodo only succumbed in the end
[19:02] but Smeagol had the ring for 500 years..
[19:03] Frodo had it for what? 12-13??
[19:03] yes, and still no sign of rust on it
[19:03] the kindness shown by Frodo brought out what
goodness remained in Smeagol
[19:03] 17 years
[19:03] it was easier for smeagol to succumb to the ring
because his heart was not as good as Frodos
[19:03] it was that long?? hmm, oki
[19:03] and Smeagol committed an evil act to gain
possession of the Ring. Frodo did not
[19:03] frodo got it by accidence
[19:03] I think that Gollum impersonates Smeagols desire
for the ring. When he gets rid of that during one part, he's happy and
he wants to help his master. Then he's betrayed and the desire for the
ring comes back.
[19:03] so it affected gollum faster
[19:03] that is true Nell, Gandalf meant that that point was
important
[19:03] nope
[19:04] that's in the movies
[19:04] in the book he already decided to gio to shelob BEFORE
the forbidden pool
[19:04] it's in the books as well Vir.
[19:04] no
[19:04] hum, that's right.
[19:04] ok, so the desire comes back anyway.
[19:04] with or without betrayal
[19:04] and bilbo was not as affected by the ring either, and
he did not commit an evil act to get it either.
[19:04] i think Smeagol doesnt get why frodo goes to mordor
[19:04] Vir is right, he decides that before they are captured
i think
[19:04] why does he go to Sauron???
[19:05] so gollum manages to persuade smeagol to betray
[19:05] I think it is mentioned in this chapter that
Gollum was called back to Mordor
[19:05] called back?
[19:05] yea well Frodo never cares to explain it either.. if
it wasn't for Gandalf saying that frodo had to take it to Mordor, he
woudn't understood that either
[19:06] Sauron let Gollum lose so he also would seek the
Ring and return with it to Mordor
[19:06] sauron is amused by gollum
[19:06] because gollum is totally grounded down by the ring
[19:07] why would golly return to mordor with the ring?
[19:07] then he loses it immediately again
[19:08] well unfortunately i have to leave this discussion
[19:08] gollum wouldn't return with it! but when he wasn't out
searching for it anymore, then sauron would know it and understand
that he had it. then sauron would just send some nazgul to get it from
him. that's what i think at least
[19:08] because he is weak anSauron and the ring can
control him
[19:09] * Airecristiel (moonglow_@dm-4074.dsl.eulstx.swbell.net) Quit
(Connection reset by peer)
[19:10] Would Gollum not think the Ring would give him
power, just as Saruman felt as well?
[19:10] So his intent would have been to betray Sauron
[19:10] absolutely
[19:11] * Airecristiel is now known as Guest7347
[19:11] Was there any hope at all that Smeagol would be
rid of Gollum if the Ring were to be destroyed?
[19:12] * Guest7347 is now known as Aire
[19:12] No, probably not
[19:12] Frodo hoped there was
[19:12] He had had the ring for far too long
[19:13] Any speculation as to what could happen to
Gollum if the Ring were destroyed?
[19:13] i think he would have gone completely crazy (that
assumes he wasn't already..)
[19:14] I think it was the hunt for the ring that kept
Gollum alive
[19:14] good point Grondmaster
[19:15] He wouldn't have had any reason to live once his
precious was destroyed
[19:15] why not, Smeagol loved his fish.
[19:15] nope. that's why i think he would have gone c o m p l
e t l y bananas!! and probably die soon after.
[19:15] Gollum loved his precious.
[19:16] too much Gollum in him after all this time
[19:16] I often got the impression that Gollum referred
to himself as "precious" too.
[19:16] true
[19:16] hmm, never thought about that myself..
[19:17] I could never be sure when reading his dialogue
whether he was talking to the Ring, which he did not have anyway or
his other self.
[19:18] well i always thought of it like he spoke to the Ring,
because he still concidered it to be his
[19:19] But he talked to precious even when the ring
wasn't around
[19:19] He also states that Smeagol will swear on the
precious, not Gollum, but Smeagol.
[19:20] that just show's how little Smeagol there is left, and
that Gollum calls the shots.
[19:20] (i think)
[19:21] Smeagol called the shots until he learned the
actually wanted to go into Mordor, then Golum regained the upper hand
[19:22] Sam is much more suspicious of Smeagol than he
was of Gollum
[19:22] he liked the new one even less than the old one
[19:22] He nkew where he had Gollum
[19:22] Smeagol is harder to know where he is
[19:23] When Gollum is Gollum he is only Gollum, and it can't get
worse.
[19:23] that is an interesting point
[19:23] They know what they have to watch
[19:26] Sam is distrustful by nature; he wasn't sure
whether Smeagol was faking his goodness and therefore he had to be
even more alert that Frodo didn't come to harm from Smeagol
[19:26] Well, this is just the beginning of the part
Gollum has to play in the fate of the quest or anti-quest, as you
will.
Saturday night/evening/afternoon?
[19:30] On Saturday we will follow them throught the
marshes
[19:30] do we have a time saturday?? same as today? (and what
was that btw??)
[19:30] yes, same time Perwing
[19:30] 2130 GMT
[19:31] On Saturday, we will decide which time is the
best for the majority

End of #bilbos-study buffer Thu Nov 06 19:31:29 2003

Here is the log from November 15th:

Start of #bilbos-study buffer: Sat Nov 15 19:14:27 2003 [08:19] * Now talking in #bilbos-study
[08:19] * ChanServ (services@darkmyst.org) has joined #bilbos-study
[08:19] * ChanServ sets mode: +o ChanServ
[08:19] * ChanServ changes topic to 'Welcome to the Planet-Tolkien
Classroom. If we do not have a class discussion going on at the moment
join us in #tolkien (Rednell)'

[17:36] I just realized I got here too early,
[17:36] hello vir
[17:36] So I'll take time out and finish rabbits and stew
[17:37] So, what chapter will we be discussing?
[17:37] Oh yeah okay then we wait...
[17:37] aehm Black Gate closed and rabbits and stew I think
[17:39] I read Black Gate again last night, but didn't
finish the second one
[17:47] mae govannen, Meldor! welcome to pt!
[17:54] ok, I think we can start now
[17:55] just a few reminders, no smilies, no actions as these
are a pain to remove before posting in the forum
[17:55] You're just in time.
[17:55] I think we will only get through The Black Gate is
Closed because there is a lot in there which will make great
discussion.
[17:56] sure, Nell
[17:56] ok, Nell

[17:56] What is the mood of Frodo and Sam as this chapter
opens?
[17:57] despair
[17:57] yes, Rawien
[17:57] they don't feel too well
[17:57] despairation
[17:57] Ring gets a bit heavy and such
[17:57] and Sam is always too heavy
[17:58] the Ring is indeed becoming more of a burden for Frodo
to bear
[17:58] What happens when they finally reach the Black Gate?
[17:59] too many enemy peopls about
[17:59] i'm srry i missed the last q
[17:59] What happens when they finally reach the Black Gate?
[17:59] they don't think they can get by.
[17:59] gate is closed
[17:59] they get affraid?
[18:00] (that was the q, Vir)
[18:00] then an army appears and gets in
[18:00] and they hear a horn
[18:00] "No use. We can't go further. Smeagol said so. He
said: we'll go to the Gate and then we'll see and we do see. Oh yes,
my precious, we do see. Smeagol knew Hobbits could not go this way. O
yes, Smeagol knew"
[18:00] Who said this?
[18:00] smeagol is very clever
[18:00] Gollum did
[18:01] indeed, virumor.
[18:01] The Gollum part of Seagol said it
[18:01] yes Arco
[18:01] So why did Gollum/Smeagol not tell Frodo that he could
not get through the Black Gate?
[18:01] if he says precious, it is Gollum
[18:01] maybe he forgot
[18:01] he didnt ask
[18:02] or he was busy with solving an important differential
equation
[18:02] Do you think Smeagol did this deliberately?
[18:02] probably
[18:02] ...Frodo asked to go to the Gate, but he didn't tell
Gollum that he actually planned to go through it.
[18:02] gollum knew they wouldn't be able to pass it anyway
[18:02] ok, good point in Smeagol's defense, Arco
[18:02] so it was safe to come up with cirith ungol
[18:03] yeahh
[18:03] if he immediately said 'hey let's go and see shelob'
[18:03] lol
[18:03] good point Vir
[18:03] it would've been a bit suspiscious
[18:03] What was Sam's perception after Gollum's statement?
[18:03] suspicious, as ever
[18:03] and annoyed
[18:03] he's as suspicious as chubby, it seems
[18:04] he thought both of Gollum's personalities had made a
truce and temporary alliance
[18:04] but when he thought about Cirith Ungol he was
Gollum and had planned to let Shelob have them
[18:04] I think this is the first time that I noticed Sam
treating Gollum and Smeagol as 2 individuals
[18:04] he treats both of them bad, anyway
[18:04] with and without reason, of course
[18:04] which goes along with what Arco says about the truce
[18:05] Sam was more suspicious of Smeagol than Gollum
[18:05] not really
[18:05] yes, I thought that too.
[18:05] he wasmore suspicous bout smeagol coz he was friendly
to frodon
[18:06] Frodo warns Smeagol that he is in danger.
[18:06] Slinker and Stinker
[18:06] Frodo did not say, Gollum, you are in danger, he said
Smeagol.
[18:07] smeagol had already agreed with gollum to go to
shelob, so lost cause
[18:07] what danger?
[18:07] that he was gonna berak the oath?
[18:08] "I did not mean the danger that wwe all share. I mean
a danger to yourself alone. You swore a promise by what you call the
Precious. Remember that! It will hold you to it, but it will see a
way to twist it to your own undoing"
[18:08] The ring would betray Seagol to a bitter end.
[18:09] So Frodo will have Smeagol believe. Was it just an
empty threat to try to gain control of Smeagol?
[18:09] the Ring betrays everyone within its grasp
[18:10] not everyone
[18:11] I don't think the threat was empty
[18:11] who would be protected from the Ring's control, Vir?
[18:11] why not, Grondy?
[18:11] Sauron
[18:11] Bombadil
[18:11] Eru
[18:11] Bombadil. good point
[18:12] but Sauron is protected because he made it, and Eru
because he made Sauron
[18:12] good points, Rawien
[18:13] well it's sauron's will inside the ring so
[18:13] because it did betray him in the last book or do
you mean Frodos threat to put on the ring and command Gollum to junp
in the fire
[18:14] Frodos threat was empty for he wouldn't have done
so
[18:14] Frodo was definitely making a point that he was aware
of the power the Ring would give him
[18:14] That brings an interesting scenerio, Grondy.
[18:15] the ring didn't betray frodo
[18:15] it just took over in the end
[18:15] if that's what u mean
[18:15] nm
[18:16] Sam is very surprised at the look on Frodo's face and
the tone of his voice. He felt that Frodo's kindness was of such a
high degree that is implied a fair measure of blindness.
[18:16] I am basing it on that, Vir.
[18:16] If he wore the ring long enough without becoming
noticed by the enemy, he might have become corrupt enough to tell
Gollum to jump though
[18:16] What does that mean?
[18:16] i'm completely lost
[18:17] me too
[18:17] ok
[18:17] I will back up.
[18:18] Grondy felt that Frodo's threat was an empty one. But
based on what Sam has observed in Frodo's look and tone towards
Smeagol, it may not have been an empty threat at all
[18:18] Frodo my well have been capable of doing what he said.
[18:19] Sam refers to "blindness" and "kindness" as
incapatible.
[18:19] Frodo's threat?
[18:20] Frodo, says that if he was wearing the Ring, he could
command Smeagol to jump into the fire and Smeagol would obey.
[18:20] This kind of threat appears completely out of
character for the Frodo that we and Sam knows
[18:20] so he is controling the ring and not the other way?
[18:20] that is interesting, Nessa.
[18:21] don't think so
[18:21] the ring would control frodo
[18:21] woldn't be possible for frodo - he isn't a Power
[18:21] Or is Frodo aware of what the Ring would have him do.
[18:21] he cant control the ring
[18:21] For Frodo to follow through with the threat means
he would be in its power
[18:22] Why would he not be able to control the Ring if he was
the master of the Ring, Virumor?
[18:22] if he would try to control the ring, the ring owuld
tak eover his mind
[18:22] cause the ring is not "controlable"
[18:22] thats why gandlaf warns him not tu use it all the time
[18:22] in chapter shoadow of the past i mean
[18:23] Even Gandalf couldn't control the Ring
[18:23] ah, that is interesting. Gandalf said that he would do
terrible things for the wrong reasons.
[18:24] * Rawien (lightning@dm-1107.ipt.aol.com) Quit (Connection reset
by peer)
[18:24] I think there is a degree of control on the part of
the master. The Ring controls the negative, the evil part of the
wearer.
[18:25] i think frodo becomes invisible coz the ring wants to
make him visible for the nazgûl
[18:25] that was already ring's influence
[18:25] ring trying to get him into sauron's hands
[18:26] of course it does, the ring want's to get back to
sauron
[18:26] frodo doesn't stand a chance against it in the long
run!
[18:26] probably not.
[18:26] he would be drained just like gollum
[18:27] I think Smeagol underestimated Frodo here, however.
[18:27] yup. it's only a matter of time. frodo might have
lasted as long as gollum, or longer, but he wouldn't resist it forever
anyway
[18:27] I think he felt that Frodo's kindness would make him
"blind" to Smeagol's treachery.
[18:28] frodo was too busy with fighting the ring's spirit
[18:28] and dealing with its increasing mental weight
[18:28] would Fodo eventually end up like Gollum? after all,
hes a hobbit-type creature too
[18:28] probably
[18:29] if he lived 500 years, yes
[18:29] Frodo thought so which was why he was kind to
Smeagol
[18:29] and hoped Smeagol could be redeemed
[18:30] that was a stupid idea
[18:30] he underestimated evil
[18:31] underestimated? or didn't want to believe?
[18:31] yes, Grondy, I agree with you there. But he was not so
blind as to think that Smeagol could have saved them another "delay"
by taking them to the Black Gate knowing that there was another way in.
[18:32] The threat cowed Smeagol
[18:3