Nell, tried to send the info to me and the attachments did not work, I don't feel qualified to teach it. But I will try. I will definetly need help from the other council members.

I think myself and Grondy are still up for covering for Rednell. Unless some emergency comes up in the meantime, I shall be there at the normal time.

That was about half of it Taz. Did you recover any more?

Start of #bilbos-study buffer: Sun Feb 16 18:58:14 2003
* Now talking in #bilbos-study
* ChanServ changes topic to 'This is Planet-Tolkien.com's
Tolkien class room! If a class is not currently active and no
one is about, try #Tolkien (Barliman)'
* ChanServ sets mode: +nt
* ChanServ sets mode: -o Rednell[away]
* Rednell[away] is now known as Rednell
* Valedhelgwath (pt@6ca5eca3.6ca5ecfb.213.78.imsk) has joined
#Bilbos-Study
First, I want to thank Grondy and Val for leading the
class last week.
and doing good as well!!
yw Nell
From all accounts you did a great job!
Actually it's praises to Grondy more than me
I second that -- they did well
Val was there to back me up or keep me in line
Credit's yours Grondy, I just sat back and
watched
but Taz seems to have lost half the transcript
I also wanted some feedback on the amount of the text
we cover each week. At this rate we will have done a very
thorough study, however, it will take 2 years to complete the
trilogy.
* Mellie (Admin@903d3b31.dsl.eulstx.f55b92fc.net.hmsk) has
joined #Bilbos-Study
Hi Mellie
hi Mellie
Welcome Mellie
hi mellie
hello all, sorry i am late
Hi Mellie
* Lady-of-Rohan1 (pt@64-252-123-218.adsl.snet.net) has joined
#Bilbos-Study
fine
wow looks like a full house
im here
welcome Mellie and Lady-of-Rohan1
Ouch
huh
Ghan-buri-Ghan> Hi Lady
Hi Lady
how am i LoR1?
So do we still wish to study the trilogy 1 chapter per
week or start doubling up?
not much. but a little bit
* Lady-of-Rohan1 is now known as LoR
ok
fine
for the later chapters we can double up
nell, as u said one chapter at a time will take ages...
Last week people were jumping ahead quite a lot
anyway
I vote we should double up -- most LOTR
chapters are short
Dudes, its nef
what ever you want to do Nell, I am just along for the
ride
by the way
and no offense
council of Elrond might need two weeks
Yes some need to stand alone, agree there grondy
Has everyone here read the Fellowship of the Ring?
ya
Yep
no
yep
Nay
yes
maybe
* Calenthang is an observer as always
an no actions as usual??
No actions or smilies pleas
and*
lol
Oh sorry
* LoR is now known as Aniwen
as long as it does not matter to the nays, then we
will start doubling up on some of the chapters then.
ok
They make the transcription hard to make
LoR, please don't change your nick so often
OK here
Okay by me
aargggg
Fine Nell
* Aniwen (pt@8d203a46.adsl.2836931f.net.hmsk) Quit (Quit:
Leaving)
good, then that is settled and we will start today's
discussion of Three is Company
We start out this chapter with Gandalf and Frodo
discussing what needs to be done with the Ring.
What has Frodo decided to do?
take the ring to rivendell
save the Shire by leaving
He was going to leave on his 50th birthday
but he wants to delay until the birthday
accompanied by Sam
good. Again Frodo compares his journey with Bilbo's.
What is the contrast?
Gandalf says not any later than then
bilbo went to get a treasure, frodo to get rid of one
Bilbo planned to return with treasure but Frodo
is disposing of it
Bilbo intended coming home, Frodo's not so sure
good
both good points
and on Bilbos last journey he just disappeared
what is similiar about their leaving the shire?
Frodo doesn't want to create such a stir
gandalf is behind it.
there is danger
they sang a song?
* Aniwen (pt@64-252-123-218.adsl.snet.net) has joined
#Bilbos-Study
and what is different about the song they sang?
yes Val, you are right Frodo does not want to create
that big of a stir
that is very true, Mellie and Val. What did Frodo do
on his birthday?
The song Frodo sings is to remind him of Bilbo
A quiet supper
nothing that I can tell right off, about the song
there is actually one word that has been changed in
the song.
"And whither then I can not say."
The super was a quite affair with close friends
Bilbo: Pursuing it with eager feet
Frodo: Pursuing it with weary feet.
Bilbo's is excited and Frodo is not
right
Wow i never noticed
me too
exactly, Mellie!
I must read the songs in future
I thought they were the same
Ditto. But of course, Bilbo did not have the
ring as a burden
That's why Nell is the teacher
very true, he only had the ring on the return journey
* Aniwen is silent.
Because Nell, volunteered for the job
And it seemed such a nice ring back then too
No actions please
and Bilbo was off on an unknown adventure, while
Frodo was off on a dangerous unknown quest
aniwen no actions please
Also, frodo is already aware of the possible
immensity of his task
When Frodo is preparing to leave the shire, he looks
around and notices that the harvest is the best ever, the corn
tall and full, etc. Was Frodo just more aware of the beauty
and abundance in the Shire because of the journey he was about
to undertake?
and bilbo had no idea, just that he was to be a thief
and there was dragon at the end
Most likely...My hometown looked really nice
just before I left too
Gandalf mentions the cracks of Doom as a
possible destination
yes, i think he was very aware because of the type of
journey
I think you start noticing the little things
more when you are going away
Frodo was still in love with the Shire and knew he
was going to miss it, maybe for ever
I think Frodo said something about the pumpkins...
yes, that is true.
My computer is acting very odd, if i disappear that is
why.
Who bought Bag End?
lobelia
Lobelia! LOL
The SB's
the sacksville Baggines
oh the irony of it all.
Wouldn't Bilbo be delighted.
Lobelia and Ortho Sackville-Baggins, finally after
all these years
At least they had to buy it rather than
inheriting
Actually, I think Ortho had died by this time.
yes i thought that was very ironic, and i think bilbo
would have been very up set
Not the last instance in the book where
something that is coveted is hard won
okay Lotho the son then
I think frodo should have given it to Sam's father the
Gaffer
Why did Frodo tell everyone that he was going to move
to Buckland?
Becasue he didn't want to put them in danger
Gaffer wouldn't have known what to do with it;
coulsdn't have afforded the upkeep or taxes
Good cover for his real plan and he came from
there
So that it would be easier for him to sneak away
without causing a stir
so, if the bad people started looking for him, he would
have a chance to get away
it did seem likely, and he didn't want people to know
he was going adventuring as well
a very credible cover.
so he could sneak off unbeknownst
I find we learn a lot about Sam in this chapter.
yes, it was an excellent idea, and he did not want to
put his friends in danger either
When they were getting to leave the Shire, Pippin made
note of Sam's share of the load. What did Pippin think?
Very practical...and a master spy
it was too heavy
Sam took more than his share
That Sam was babying Frodo?
Frodo didn't seem to protest much, however, did he?
Said he would check the loads the next day
that sam was willing to do more than his share and was
very considerate and kind
he did say something about checking the packs later
yes, later....
I think the master servant relationship was well
in place anyway
yes, I think you are right, Val
Sam would naturally have carried some of his
master's load
wanted to be off, and he was upstairs and Sam was
downstairs
I agree Val and it is hard for us to understand
the dynamics
I am not so sure that Pippin recognized it as such,
however.
no to Pippin it was still a lark
To Pippin they were all equals
yes, that is true val, it is something that is
difficult for me to understand a master/servant relationship.
There is another incident in the chapter where Pippin
was annoyed because Frodo went off and did not return with
water.
Something about putting it in his pockets
Bucklanders seem more egalitarian and
self-reliant
I think Pippin was as naive as i am
lol
But remember, Sam and Frodo know what they carry,
Pippin does not know the dangers they may face.
Very true
but frodo just told him to come with him and help
carry the water
I think they have an idea about the ring though
didn't sam rattle him out to merry and pippin?? we get
to know that later
we don't yet know that though Val
They know more than thery are letting on
They know the Ring is magic and made Bilbo disappear
but I think only Sam and Frodo know who the Ring belongs to.
your right Ghan, i never would have thought of that,
but Pippin also had no real clue why Frodo was leaving at that
point. yes we find out later that Pippin knew about the ring,
but he does not understand all that is involved with it yet
True
Pippin wants to rest and stop at taverns and such
I feel that the attitude changes after teh
encounter with the black rider
As they are walking along the road, they hear horse
hoofs. Frodo starts to have a struggle here. What is it?
yes, the attitude did change then. they started
realizeing the dangers.
The ring wants to be worn
he wanted to put the ring on
The ring is calling to the balck rider, trying
to get Frodo to reveal himself
is it the tiger or Gandalf hiding behind that door
probably the ring senses the wraith
and the ring was calling to him
the ring wants to be found
Frodo is missinf Gandalf
yes and it would seem that Frodo sensed that. I
noticed he told Sam and Pippin that perhaps it is Gandalf
sneaking up on them and suggests that they hide to surprise him
maybe it is he riding the horse
But Frodo was quite sure it was not Gandalf.
Frodo is very worried by gandalf's absence
Definitely
yes, and it really scared him
the hairs rising on the back of Frodo's nech tell
him it isn't Gandald
indeed
if gandalf had been there, frodo would not have been as
nervous about the journey.
Get off the road!
he felt certain that he did not want the rider to
discover him.
And only Frodo knows anything of gandalf's true
power
Gandalf was his protector, and Frodo felt very lost
with out him
In a way, I always felt Tolkien was finding
excuses for Gandalf not to be around
how so, Valedhelgwath
how do you mean Val?
just like the three troll incident
As a writer to keep up the suspense
good point.
Indeed
He left Bilbo and the Dwarves and then Frodo
ahhh, ok, never thought about that. very interesting
It seems like a plot contrivance but it is
really the effect of saruman's betrayel, as we later discover
only there to pull the fat out of the fire when
really needed
True, but from a writer's point of view, I think
he needed him out of the way
helps build self-reliance in the others
I agree, Val but he works it into the story
very well
You feel too safe when Gandalf is there
Of course if Gandalf was there to keep danger away,
Frodo would never have taken on the task that was given him.
Yes, he comes up with very good excuses
yes, but at least gandalf was there in the beginning of
the adventure,
with bilbo,
Or the trip to Rivendell would have been a
doddle
Gandalf really plays the role of the historian in FOTR
to point out the way for Frodo too
I think Gandalf perhaps realised this as well
but reading the book for the first time without read
the hobbit, u wouldn't know Gandalf could keep him out of
trouble so easily...
Starting to wonder about so many things is
distracting
true, Perwing.
The story was told as it was ment to be
Istar means "messenger" doesn't it?
and very well too, Calenthang
yes it does
yes, i believe so Calenthang
Gandalf is a facilitator
So Gandaldf is a messenger, not an actor
that would fit Gandalf's role in the first book of the
trilogy.
yes it does, but we doesn't know Gandalf is istari yet
when do we learn that?
The mission of the Istari was to guide rather
than directly influence though
Indeed, per
Showing the path
which explains the lack of involvement of Gandalf at
this point in the story.
Of course, "angel" also means messenger
tnx val, didn't know that
I don't think we really find out Gandalf's
heritage in LotR Mellie
thanks Val,
I think we get a hint when he returns later as
gandalf the white
Yes, but no real details
i do too ghan
so Gandalf is gone and we here the Black riders
horse and get odd the path
il brb
no, and it really isn't important for the telling of
the story, however, it does help understand the full scope of
it.
* Aniwen is now known as Aniwen_brb
Just a hint, though
ok, and a little bit, when we hear about his meeting
with Saurman
which is later in the book.
Maybe you should proceed Rednell
sorry, i am jumping ahead a bit.
Frodo is wooired about Gandalf's disapearance as
is Gildor
The question is if the Ring is trying to bring
attention to Frodo, then what is giving Frodo the warning in
his heart that he should hide, before he even saw the black
rider?
At times it's difficult to hold yourself back
i think he just senses danger, but doesn't know what
it is
The ring
I think Gandalf had given Frodo warning about
the Nine
His common sense or Eru
Can we assume an animate force of good, just as
the ring is (nearly) animate evil?
The ring has a mind of it's own and maybe Frodo can
sense it
* Littleirena (pt@80ec8844.vc.5eb2c41d.net.hmsk) has joined
#Bilbos-Study
could be any of those. Frodo certainly did know that
there was danger lurking out there.
Hi Irina
hullo
Maybe the ring was heightening his senses, and
he had been prewarned too
yes val, but neither val nor frodo thinks the nine are
after the ring yet
What happens the next time they meet a black rider?
val=gandalf, sorry
Easy mistake Perwing
They are saved by the presence of teh Elves
they hear it snuffling
smelling after them
I liked that sound in the movie!!!
Sorry for the distraction
it was spooky Calenthang
yes, Frodo says that the black rider was crawling
towards him when the voices of the Elves scared it off.
Notice how the black rders behave in a very
animalistic way
Aye,it was
good point Ghan, why do you think Tolkien did that?
It's main sense is smell, so it would be
sniffinght e ground for a trail
this part of the book scared me
It's more like sniffing for the ring
Don't you think
?
Our perception of the riders changes as we get
to know more about them. At Bree and Amon Sul they have grown
in stature
They definitely become more frightening.
the unknown is almost always scaryier than the
known
Seeing them as dangerous animals is a very
Shire-style way of looking at them
I wonder if the animalistic behaviour is indicative of
the loss of their free will when they were taken by the Dark
Lord?
I agree
in the beginning they are more like dogs or wolves,
than men.
I agree there, Nell. they have little humanity
left
Or maybe none
Maybe the way a being without a body moves too
besides that is wasn't yet dark was it?
no it was not yet dark Grondy.
they were more powerful in the dark
a lot more powerful
They were?
Yes, grondy
Yes, darkness was their ally
I never knew that
Most creations of Morgoth and Sauron could not
stand the sun
yes, as were the Orcs
so maybe their eyesight wasn't as good in the
daylight and so they had tomuse their sense of smell
Back to the appearance of the Elves.
that is an excellent point grondy,
They were Blind, Grondy
ok, elves
More than just good luck, in the circumstances
They only had their sense of smell
thought they are scared of water
right?
yes, they were
all exept the king
The Elves had been told to watch for frodo?
yes they did not like water Littleirena
Most evil things were scared of water due to Ulmo
ahh
I don't think so G-b-G
they had been told he would come, i don't remember
they had been told to watch out for him.
that's true, Val, but i forget about Ulmo, when talking
about Lotr. but that makes sense.
At this point in the story, it appears to be just by
chance that the Elves meet the Hobbits.
another coincidence
Frodo does make the remark" This is indeed a strange
chance"
What is Sam
's reaction to the Elves?
and sam was so excited about seeing the elves
Wonder
Sam was awestruck
Well since he always wanted to meet them....
he's astonished, finally he get's to see the elves
oboy! O bOy! Elves Sir
He is incredibly excited
Was he disappointed?
no...
not in the least
Speachless
What about Pippin?
Just sleepy
he was more cool about it, "so they're elves, i want
food and sleep!"
"eh, so what?"
yeah, I got that impression too.
But they must have made him feel safe to go from
being afraid to thinking more about sleep
true, good point
I don't think Pippin had a lot of problems with
sleeping.
Remember Pippin has not had the benefit of
stories fromBilbo and gandalf
so his perception is limited by his knowledge
Although, he certainly enjoyed the bread
Lembas was it?
Plus Piipin is a Took... he's perhaps seen elves
before
oh, I think he had Bilbo's stories , just didn't
put too much store in them
that is a possiblilty I never considered.
hmmm, interesting Val, do you really think that Pippin
could have seen elves before?
he is still a tweenager after all
The Tooks got about a lot more than other Hobbits
I like Val's idea -- even Tom knew of the
Bucklanders
yes that is true,
hmmm, this is very interesting
And elves were known in the shire to pass west
And they are still in the Shire and there were Hobbits
who saw the Elves going West
Hobbits did see them
All this talking about Elves makes me feel nice!
It's so mystic
Who was the Elf that met the Hobbits?
They are the real good guys in LotR
gildor
Gildor
but Elves were not important to most in the Shire
Of the house of Finrod....real good guys
How did Frodo greet them?
Gildor Inglorion of the house of finrod
Elen sila lumen omentielvo
They didn't bother in either's affairs so thre
wasn't and danger from them
*
which means, Calenthang?
A star shines upon the hour of our meeting
How did Gildor react to this?
he said they didn't need any company but their own
He was pleased to meet a Hobbit who spoke
Quenya?
Thats right Ghan
Sindarin actually
Indeed he was quite impressed.
Good point, Cal
Thank you
that was later then
I am assuming it was Quenya since Gildor refers to it
as the ancient tongue
he told the other elves to be careful, and speak no
secrets because here is a scholar in the ancient gongue
tongue*
OMG
Me too -- but i think Cal is right. the phrase
was first used in a famous battle of the first(?) age
Rednell you are right
I am sorry Ghan
but they would normally talk toi the hobbits in
westron
but then since they were woodelves then Sindarin would
be their language wouldn't it?
They were Noldor
they were high elves
Or at least Gildor was
oh were they?
so I think they were talking in Sidarin
noldor
Yes they said they were Exiles (=Noldor)
yep ghan
Gildor was of the house of finrod
that is right, I remember reading that now.
But can anyone remember who first said elen
sila lumenn' omentielvo?
Frodo I think!
Frodo said that
no one in ch 3 in lotr exept frodo...
yes, it was Frodo
* Ghan-buri-Ghan (pt@d437675f.telkom-ipnet.14056081.za.hmsk)
Quit (Quit: Leaving)
I found the exchange between Frodo and Gildor
interesting. Why is Gildor being so elusive and not reveal
what he knows about the black riders.
because it was not a safe place to discuss it?
he doesn't think it's his "responsibility" to tell
so as not to scare them even more, especially as
Gandalf hadn't told them more
Perwing, now that sounds very Elvish
Heh
Perwing has it right!
* Littleirena (pt@80ec8844.vc.5eb2c41d.net.hmsk) Quit (Quit:
Leaving)
i'm getting into characher...
very good perwing
I don't know Grondy, he was making them sound pretty
dangerous.
I think Gildor has an idea that Frodo is being
persude
That is a very good point, Val.
He also knows there are riders ahead and behind
them
Oh yes, Gildor knows what they are
Would Frodo have continued if he really knew what lied
ahead?
I think he would
probably he would, he didn't wanna take the ring back
to the shire
not sure, but i would like to think so
but it isn't his job to take part, he is a
messenger
The futer of Middle-earth depends on it
I think he knew he had to...he knew they would
find him in the Shire
He didn't have a choice actually
that makes rivendell and gandalf's advise his target
for the journey
This is very early in the journey. I wonder if he
would have had Gildor told him what the Black Riders really
were and what they were capable of.
Sam has told him about the one he heard at the
Gaffer's by then
Gildor will tell him nothing that Gandalf has
not already mentioned though
yes, but they had already seen the Black Rider by that
time.
Gildor was protecting Frodo from the whole truth
he tried to make gildor tell him, but gildor refused
so frodo shouldn't get too scared and call off the whole
journay
Do you get the impression that this annoyed Frodo?
I think Frodo felt he was being kept in the dark
not really, what annoyed both frodo and gildor was
that gandalf hadn't shown up yet
* Ghan-buri-Ghan (pt@d437675f.telkom-ipnet.14056081.za.hmsk) has
joined #bilbos-study
I think it concerned them that Gandalf hasn't arrived
he was more disappointed than annoyed i think
worried more than anything...the news worried
Gildor too
i agree with Val, it was more concern than anything
But Gildor tries to brush it off: "Do not meddle in
teh affairs of Wizards, for they are suble and quick to anger."
Go not to the elves for advice for they say both
yes and no
gildor gave him an advise in the end though, to travel
soon and as fast as he could
what did Frodo ask for?
And to take friends with him
right val
Did he gave a horse to Frodo?
He wanted to know what the riders were
Or I am mistaken....
where he could find courage
No horse
yes, courage
Thank you Grondmaster
And Gildor replies with something we will hear again.
"Courage is found in unlikely places"
Courage is found in unlikely places
Gildor makes a promise as well.
To send out messengers
yep
"now i'll sleep" end of chapter!
The Wandering Companies shall know of your journey.
Gildor seems to have accepted that a Hobbit will be
the best hope for Middle Earth.
And so too will the Nazgul if they capture a
messenger...a bit dodgy I thought
Goldor also named Frodo: Elf-friend
oh, but we know the Valar are watching over the
Ringbearer.
do we??
Gildor said it was more than chance their meeting
Frodo also felt it was more than chance. Not to
mention the "sense" that told Frodo to hide from the
approaching rider.
Several constellations came into the sky at
their meeting too
right
yes, but at this point we don't know anything about the
Valor
6th sense?
i have that too...
but then again, i have the ring also... lool
Yes, Val and the elves are singing to Varda as
well
we don't need to Mellie.
May Elbereth protect you
you are correct, and i forgot about Elbereth
Elbereth was Varda
who created the stars
To watch over the Children in the darkness
but do the elves singing Elbereth's praise tell us the
Valar's are watching over Frodo???
ur loosing me here...
not directly, Perwing.
It could imply that, without making it
definitive
They just say, may Elbereth watch over you
That is why we are discussing the book chapter by
chapter, so we can dig deeper
hvorfor ikke lyd?
which is a blessing as such
sorry, wrong window
Yes, Grondy, its a standard blessing, but the
name had power over the Nine as well
They would flee from someone calling it
Next week we will discuss Shortcut to Mushrooms and
The Old Forest, which will take us to the meeting of Tom
Bombadil
Never heard of him
?
what I meant was Gildor was giving them his
blessing for their journey
lol
Even I have heard of him
certainly the Black Rider fled at the coming of the
Elves
Yes, I see that Grondy
I knew you did Val
If the elves were from Valinor, they would have
the light of the trees which the nine would fear
No, Gildor knew Frodo was going to be very important
in the conquering of evil.
the inate light of the trees
Aaahhh the trees
Gildor probably didn't know until AFTER he talked to
Frodo though
"My heart forbodes that, ere all is ended, you, Frogo,
son of Drogo, will know more of these fell things than Gildor
Inglorion. May Elbereth protect you."
he knew as he was talking to Frodo
I think he knew a Hobbit carried something of great
importance, and it wasn't until he had talked to Frodo that he
knew who the Hobbit was.
I don't think he knew of the ring, just that The
Black riders wouldn't be after him for just any old reason
He'd learned much from Bilbo too
Probably more than Bilbo realised he had told him
yes he said he had met Bilbo in that very spot as
Bilbo was leaving the Shire
And the Rangers had been guarding the Shire for
years too
but Bilbo didn't know the significance of the Ring.
I don't think Goldor knew ahead of time that a
hobbit would be carrying a great burden until after he met
Frodo
I must go, I'm at work in 5 hrs
bye Val.
G'nite Val
Thanks, see you later
bye val
OK Val take care
cheers all
bye Val
I am in school in 6 hours
* Valedhelgwath (pt@6ca5eca3.6ca5ecfb.213.78.imsk) Quit (Quit:
Leaving)
G'nite Cal
Good night all
Good class Nell, are we done?
Shall we retire to the other room?

End of #bilbos-study buffer Sun Feb 16 18:58:14 2003

I'm sorry folks, but I cannot make this one (even though you are in session as I write this). I will be away at sea for most of next week and need to get caught up with the Reading Discussion Group (as well as the rest of the forum) before I go away.

I look forward to reading the transcript though. My thoughts are in there with you.

Start of #Bilbos-Study buffer: Sun Feb 23 18:21:25 2003
* Now talking in #Bilbos-Study
* ChanServ sets mode: +o Rednell
* ChanServ changes topic to 'This is Planet-Tolkien.com's
Tolkien class room! If a class is not currently active and no
one is about, try #Tolkien (Barliman)'
* ChanServ sets mode: +nt

hi Perwing
hi again nell

will u do one or two chapters today?
* Calenthang (pt@6ca5f09f.14055a96.195.24.imsk) has joined
#bilbos-study
hey cal
Good evening all
good evening
hi Calenthang, are you feeling any better?
* Cano_Yavanna (pt@a72552bd.tnt1.panama-city.fl.da.140562b5.net.h
msk) has joined #bilbos-study
Now I do

hi cano
hi, my first Bilbo session
Well be sure to have fun
* Arwen (pt@1d2e0f84.a4c716b2.net.hmsk) has joined #Bilbos-Study
good
No use of actions,remember
!
no smiles
okay, I'll remember that
KK
hi, sorry i'm late i was lunchin'
hi Arwen
Cause I always forget
* Grondmaster (pt@60ac36c7.client.dda11a73.com.hmsk) has joined
#Bilbos-Study
hi Grondy
Yo Nell and all
Hi Red. Cano, Asteroth, Per Grondy, and Cale
Well met Arwen
* Bethrezen (Infernal_k@14055ad2.14055a57.212.253.imsk) has
joined #Bilbos-Study
hi Bethrezen

ok, we will be discussing chapters IV and V of
Fellowship of the Ring. Shortcut to Mushrooms and Conspiracy
unmasked
Shall we begin?
Yes
We start out the morning after the Hobbits meet the
Elves
They left us breakfast
They resume their journey to where?
Crickhollow
correct
* Prince_Xizor (prince_xiz@6ca5f03f.14055a97.212.253.imsk) has
joined #Bilbos-study
Prince you are late young man!
did anyone else notice that Frodo seemed irritated by
Pippin's questions?
Sit down and be quiet
* Asteroth (Infernal_k@6ca5f09f.14055ab4.212.253.imsk) Quit
(Ping timeout)
Ok
joking
Sam?
i think you right red
anyway, did Frodo seem irritated>
I think Frodo as still bent out of shape because
Gildor hadn't answered his questions
(......) i think there is something else behide
yes, I think you are right, Grondy. This must really
be preying on Frodo's mind.
i think he starts to have uneasy feelings
He seemed more anxious than irritated
Anxious is probably a better choice of words.
actually i have to desagree he yells at pippin to leave
him alone
now he was on the road and hunted, his adventure
no longer felt like a lark
yes, but perhaps being anxious causes him to seem
irritated
yes... that too
I am not so sure it was ever a lark for Frodo.
for Pippin, perhaps.
besides now that he was awake he needed to think
In fact Frodo seems very concerned about taking his
friends on this journey.
Pippin's questions were not conducive to thinking
* Ashkael (prince_xiz@14055a38.14055a9a.212.253.imsk) has joined
#Bilbos-study
Why do you think Frodo is concerned about his
companions now and not when he left Bagend.
Black Riders?
when he left bag end he didn't intend on bringing
pippin and merry
everything became real to him after the Nazgul
experience
yes, they certainly put a whole new twist on the
quest, didn't they?
Perhaps he was sensing
*
Aye,they did
* MellieAway (Mellie@903d3b31.dsl.eulstx.f55b92fc.net.hmsk) has
joined #Bilbos-Study
* MellieAway is now known as Mellie
the danger now was real rather than amorphus
When Frodo was comtemplating his decisions, Sam seemed
to sense what he was thinking. What did Sam say?
which decisions are we talking about
i think we are talking about the point where frodo
doesn't want to take sam pippin and merry along
whether it was right of him to expect his friends to
go along on this quest
that is correct, Arwen
Gildor said not to go alone, but to take them who
would go with him
that's one thing i got in my whole life
* Prince_Xizor (prince_xiz@6ca5f03f.14055a97.212.253.imsk) Quit
(Ping timeout)
Sam seem to sense what Frodo was thinking and
responded to Frodo's thoughts.
* Ashkael is now known as Prince_Xizor
Sam told Frodo that Gildor told him not to leave Frodo.
this is probably the first point where we see how much
frodo really cares abot merry and pippin but especially sam,
it sounds alomost like he knows how bad this could get
and of course Sam said that he never meant to.
good point Arwen
Sam wasn't asleep when Frodo thought he had been
yep....
What kind of change did Frodo notice came over Sam
after their encounter with the Elves?
Sam was more thoughtful after the Elves
i think you can almost see sam realize that he is such a
small part of the whole picture
yes
like the world became real to Sam
and not just stories
that's true Cano
that is a good point, almost like wisdom
i agree
Sam also noticed something about himself after the
encounter, what was it?
yeah a lot more wisdom than when he said "me go and see
Elves and all. Horray"
definitely, Arwen
i think that sam starts understanding that it will not
end with giving the ring to someone else
he feels that this will take them where nobosy dared to
go before
but he wants to go
Sam notes that he seems to see ahead in a kind of way.
"I have something to do before the end and it lies ahead not
in the Shire."
Excellent point Arwen!
because he loves his master as a brother
thanks
very well put Arwen
he also realizes that things always arent what
you expect
he almost seems wiser than frodo in that very sentence
when he says about the dark jurney
There seems to have been a real growth of character in
Sam after the encounter with the elves.
immediate grow, definately
something very unexpected i would say cause i used to
pic. him as a small little gardener
* Prince_Xizor (prince_xiz@14055a38.14055a9a.212.253.imsk) has
left #Bilbos-study
* Sam (pt@p-1-02.du.midcoast.com) has joined #Bilbos-Study
Perhaps in a sense he is Arwen. There will be times
that Frodo will lose his wisdom and sense of direction and now
Sam has been "suited up" for the journey
* Bethrezen (Infernal_k@14055ad2.14055a57.212.253.imsk) Quit
(Quit: Bethrezen)
What a suddent chenge for short period of time!
change*
well we have to remeber tat sam will always be a lot
more fit for the whole thing than frodo
because frodo is a noble kind of person
the only place he had been was his garden
Sam now knows he has a mission, still unknown, to
accomplish before he can return to the Shire
Not something he knew or sensed when he left the
Shire, however, Grondy.
on the other hand even if sam wasn't as educated he had
more of a rogh life exipience know what i mean?
it is almost like Sam has ESP about the journey
something like that Cano
yeah
yes Cano
he could see hard times, but didnt know exactely
what
No, he sensed that after his meeting with the elves
but he already knew what to do, stick and protec frodo
as well as he could
but remember this all came after meeting the Elves.
Remember what he was like before they met the Elves.
"me go and see elves and all horray" red?
I don't think he knew that he had to protect Frodo,
just accompany him
he was more naive before he met the Elves
most definitely, Sam
The Elves said, "Don't you leave him!"
Naive is right!
But so did Gandalf, Grondy. Why would this be any
different?
well Elves said it....
maybe because his dream was to see the elves
Yes Arwen
and he wold have cherished everything they would have
said forever
That was my point too
that is an interesting point.
it was a command because they knew what the Black
Riders were, and sensed Frodo couldn't do it on his own
yes I like that Arwen
I think the elves just reinforced what Gandalf had to
say. and then after the Black Riders and the elves Sam really
realized all of the dangers
I think a command would definitely have more impact
sam had really high thoughs about the elves, and he
didn't then know how powerful gandalf really was
that's true
but he didn't so the only thing that really bound him to
those words was the incredible desire to know and meet the
elves and see what they are like, supreme beings, and charish
anything they could have taught him.
good point Arwen
Arwen is on a roll tonight
ohh yeah!
i'm all around excited this is my favorite part1
!*
As the Hobbits set out again, how does Tolkien use the
physical setting to set the mood?
he says that they are late
putting pressure on the characters
sun is shining, everything looks peaceful for a
bit...
espacially frodo and sam the only two who know or kind
of realize what they are getting themsleves mixed up with
The leaves loew upwards in sudden gusts of wind and
spots of rain began to fall from the overcast sky. Then the
wind died away and teh rain came streaming down."
pippin and merry for now are still only a comic relief
merry shows them the way through the Old Forest
it is his first time 'doing something;
loew=blow
Ahh the old forest
Merry isn't there
yeah
oh sorry
you are getting ahead of the story
This is the point where Pippin disagrees with Frodo's
choice of path.
tsz tsz tsz
the weather is very dreary, and Frodo is moody and
irritated.
Well that's because he is trying to keep them safe
And away from the Black Riders
Pippin hopes to visit the Golden Perch for the beer
Then they hear a cry...
Frodo does have a lot to be moody about
the weather matches Fodo's mood
PIppin = comic relief
good point cano
yes i noticed that too Cano
It seemed that way, Cano
yes Cano
When the sun comes out, does Frodo's mood change at
all?
At least he was more civil with Pippin, joining in the
song.
Where do they end up when they come out of the woods?
bycckeberry acvross the river
buckleberry*
not yet
?
Tom Bombadilo's house?
sorry, yes, Arwen
This might be VERY wrong
turnip field
close Bucklebury, too far south
whose turnip field?
Farmer Maggot's fiilds
How did Frodo feel about this?
ooh yeah
scared
why?
Gang, Grip and Wold
Fang*
for starters, yes.
Wolf*
he did not have fond memories of Farmer Maggot
why was that Sam?
he had been stealing mushrooms from maggot's field
when he was younger
because Frodo stole mushrooms from him
and Maggot did not like that. frodo was afraid maggot
would set the dogs on him
What kind of a reception do they receive from Farmer
Maggot?
Maggot told his dogs they could eat Frodo next
time they saw him
well i never thoght maggot was a bad person even if
tolkien makes him sound like that
i mean
how wold you feel if i came and stole the food you took
time and work to grow?
Actually, Arwen, I don't think Maggot was mean at all
in this chapter.
stealing Mushrooms isn't a nice thing to do
Obviously he didn't hold a grudge.
Farmer Maggot was nice to them in this chapter
i know but still
maggot was a typical next door neighbor, nice
when youre nice, mean whenyou're mean
What kind of stories did Maggot have to tell the young
Hobbits?
I don't think maggot was serious before (about setting the
dogs on him) but Frodo didn't understand
exactly Sam
hmmm
but still it depends on how you read the book
who's character you identify with
Maggot told them he'd seen a Black Rider
of course it does Arwen
he told them there had been a black rider there,
asking for frodo
if you think on frodo's side like i do you see the guy
as a mean person before he was nice to them
Of course Maggot was just trying to make a point
to Frodo, to stop his stealing. Probably would have given him
mushrooms had he asked
Arwen, you are referring to the perspective of a
Hobbit child who had been stealing from a local farmer.
I agree, Grondy
hey, i'm 14! i am supposed to see all adults as
mean!heheh
yes Grondy I agree
What about the stories that Farmer Maggot told Frodo,
Sam, and Pippin?
yes there is that perspective Arwen
Who had visited Maggot?
he told them there had been a black rider
there, asking for frodo
good Perwing.
about the stranger who offered him gold for word
of Baghgins?
What was his theory about this stranger?
baggins?
Baggins is coming
he was a weirdo?
after Bilbo's treasure
that he was bad news.
maggot didn't like the black rider
He is a very shrewd fellow indeed. How close to the
mark was he?
he was partly right about the treasure
very
too close?
only the treasure was not money but the Ring
yes, I think Frodo must have been doing some squirming
at this point.
well bilbo's greatest treasure is The Ring, soooo...
yes me too
but of course Maggot didn't know about the ring
i've always seen Frodo as Bilbo's biggest tresure
Frodo might have been worried about who he could trust
and then frodo has the ring therefore togther they are
the biggest tresure
very good Arwen
so Frodo was just feeling this
yes I think that too Arwen. Frodo was his biggest
treasure, and yet he longed for the Ring
I love the way Tolkien maintains the aura of suspense
when Farmer Maggot takes them down the road to meet Merry. How
does he do this?
because if the nazgul would have found frodo he would
have killed him taking both of the tresures awayfrom bilbo
very good analogy, Arwen.
yes Arwen
thanks!
in his wagon with the lanterns unlit so it is dark
in the wagon
yes it is dark and there is a heavy mist.
Now that is very creepy.
Merry had a hood so did the Black Riders
darkness represents the evil of sauron in the book
and they hear hore hoofs in the dark
everytime that it is dark something happens
horse*
yes, so our Hobbits would now be feeling fear in their
hearts.
and in Mordor it is night at all times
therefore i would say that darkness is bad
there wring wraiths are dark
evil is dark
elves are white
and glowing
darkness hides the unknown
that is all that makes it scarey
After all that, I love the ending of this chapter. It
ends on a lighter note with Frodo receiving a basket of
mushrooms from the Maggots.
very true gorndy
yes, i liked that ending to the chapter too.
Not only did it make Frodo smile, it made me smile too.
it ends with hobbits thinking about food
it actually made Frodo laugh
Very good observation, Sam
* Nef-away (Llover13lo@a55580.6ca5ed01.66.159.imsk) has joined
#bilbos-study
do you wish to go on to the next chapter?
* Nef-away (Llover13lo@a55580.6ca5ed01.66.159.imsk) has left
#bilbos-study
Do mushrooms have an aroma?
a very earthy aroma, actually.
tolkien seemed to think so...
i believe so
i don't mind going on to the next chapter.
Conspiracy Unmasked.
anyone else want to continue?
What was the conspiracy?
i know so, my grandpa has a whole bunch every time i go
that's up to you Nell, I'm willing
then we shall continue
ok
What was the conspiracy unmasked?
that all the hobbits knew about frodo's trip, cause
sam had told them
brb, mommy wants me you can go on i'll catch up later
That Merry and Pippin knew Frodo and Sam were
planning on leaving the Shire
Sam served as a spy I think, Perwing, so I think they
knew something was up before Sam told them he was leaving.
That they had a spy network set up to watch Frodo
What did the conversation with Farmer Maggot confirm?
Pippen actually asked Frodo how close Farmer Maggot
was to the truth.
How did Merry know about the Ring?
That it had to do with the Bilbos treasure
he saw Bilbo with it
when, Sam?
a long time ago he saw Bilbo disapear
hiding from whom?
L. S-B, I think
yep, those be the ones
Now that Frodo knew about the conspiracy, do you think
he was relieved?
Merry also sneaked a look in Bilbo's book
this is true, Grondy.
Not at first, for he thought they meant to keep
him from going
hey i'm back what are we talking about now?
there was a matter of trust...
and they had kept the matter of the ring secret
I think he was
yes he say, it does not seem that i can trust anyone.
I really like Merry's response. It shows true
friendship.
but Merry relplies that it all depends on what you want
yes so do I Nell
'you can trust us to stick to you through thick and
thin to the bittter end. and you can trust us to keep any
secret of yours - closer than you keep it yourself
it shows how loyal Merry and Pippen are even though they
don't understand it
i got to go, bye
* Cano_Yavanna (pt@a72552bd.tnt1.panama-city.fl.da.140562b5.net.h
msk) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
but you cannot trust us to let you face trouble alone,
and go off without a word.
You can trust us to stick to you through thick and
thin - to the bitter end. And you can trust us to keep any
secret of yours - closer than you keep it yourself. But you
cannot trust us to let you face trouble alone, and go off
without a word. We are your friends, Frodo.
I think this says it all when it comes to defining
friendship.
yes. it is very nice to have friends like that.
Yep
it shows Frodo that he doesn't have to be alone
i think frodo is very relieved after that little speach.
This chapter really defines the friendship that will
prove to be the strength of the Fellowship over and over
again.
A friend in need is a friend indeed
and so ends this weeks class.
Thank you Rednell is was wonderful...as always
ohhh.....
Yes, he has friends with which to share part of
the burden, but not that of the ring
Next week we will cover the next three chapters. That
will take us to The Prancing Pony.
yep
3?
wow, that was a short chapter.
great class nell
i thought 2 was a long way...
anyway
3? wow. ok
i guess i will get used to it now that i found some time
to come
thank you Rednell, the class was wonderful
* Perwing (remiajohns@6ca5f05f.234.103.226.adsl.oeke.d407ad04.no.
hmsk) has left #bilbos-study
These 3 are the chapters that deal with Tom Bombadil.
It is easier to do it all at once
* Calenthang holds the door for all ladies
* Taz (Taz@public1-lanc2-3-cust136.brig.broadband.ntl.com) has
joined #bilbos-study
* ChanServ sets mode: +o Taz
Shall we retire to the other room?
ahhh ok that makes sense
yes lets

Taz way late....
hehehehe
ok
ok
* Sam (pt@p-1-02.du.midcoast.com) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
* Taz (Taz@public1-lanc2-3-cust136.brig.broadband.ntl.com) has
left #bilbos-study (Client Exiting)
* Mellie (Mellie@903d3b31.dsl.eulstx.f55b92fc.net.hmsk) has left
#Bilbos-Study
* Arwen (pt@1d2e0f84.a4c716b2.net.hmsk) has left #Bilbos-Study
End of #Bilbos-Study buffer Sun Feb 23 18:21:25 2003

Thanks for the last class Nell, it was wonderful as usual! I look forward to tomorrow's class.