Thread: Earth as middle earth
ok we all hopefully know that jRR based his books on the world war so isn't it possible that he based middle-earth on some modern day countries if so give some suggestions of where you think some countries came into middle-earth
If tolkien based middle earth geographically its possible that america is Valinor. what do you all think?
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we all hopefully know that jRR based his books on the world war
Sorry, you need to reread the Forward to LotR where Tolkien wrote, among other things (like it wasn't an allegory) that: we all hopefully know that jRR based his books on the world war
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It was written long before the foreshadow of 1939 had yet become a threat of inevitable disaster, and from that point the story would have developed along essentially the same lines, if that disaster had been averted. Its sources are things long before in mind, or in some cases already written, and little or nothing in it was modified by the war that began in 1939 or its sequels.
- from the Forward to LotR
It was written long before the foreshadow of 1939 had yet become a threat of inevitable disaster, and from that point the story would have developed along essentially the same lines, if that disaster had been averted. Its sources are things long before in mind, or in some cases already written, and little or nothing in it was modified by the war that began in 1939 or its sequels.
- from the Forward to LotR
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If tolkien based middle earth geographically its possible that america is Valinor.
No, the Americas are still here on Earth. When Iluvatar caused the sinking of Númenor, he also removed Aman and Valinor from the confines of Arda so that the Valar would never again be bothered by the likes of Men.If tolkien based middle earth geographically its possible that america is Valinor.
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But the land of Aman and Eressëa of the Eldar were taken away and removed beyond the reach of Men for ever. - from near the end of the 'Akallabêth' in The Silmarillion.
But the land of Aman and Eressëa of the Eldar were taken away and removed beyond the reach of Men for ever. - from near the end of the 'Akallabêth' in The Silmarillion.
Tolkien said that America was once the Landof the Gates of Morning and on the west coast stood the Rockies. When the world became round, America could be in the far west, or in the far east, whichever way you like. I also got a map of Midle Earth that looks unmistakingly like Weatern Eurassia(Europe) and northern Africa. Click here.
This URL works so do you mind to have a look at it?
This URL works so do you mind to have a look at it?
Tolkien was a soldier in world war 1 and it is believed that he wrote his book in the trenches, one of the theories of christopher tolkien that the events in the 1st 2nd 3rd 4th ages of middle earth are part of a forgotten time period of european history.
I do not believe Middle-earth represents any period that has occured in our history.
America cannot be Aman for the reasons Grondy gave. Aman would lie somewhere far above America in some outer plain like the thermosphere or exosphere (perhaps the equivelent of Ilmen or Vaiya).
America cannot be the Gates of Morning (also called Lands of Sun) either becuase they lie in the furthest East of Arda, not the furthest west.
America would be the 'New lands' that were formed after Valinor was taken away. The lands that took the place of Valinor on Earth but were uninhabited.
America cannot be Aman for the reasons Grondy gave. Aman would lie somewhere far above America in some outer plain like the thermosphere or exosphere (perhaps the equivelent of Ilmen or Vaiya).
America cannot be the Gates of Morning (also called Lands of Sun) either becuase they lie in the furthest East of Arda, not the furthest west.
America would be the 'New lands' that were formed after Valinor was taken away. The lands that took the place of Valinor on Earth but were uninhabited.
To quote the quote Galin quoted in The Hobbit
As I said in the thread I linked to, I believe that many ages may have passede between the time of Tolkien's tale and ours. The Valar may have changed the shape of the lands many times.
(Of course I don't *really* believe Tolkien's world was real, but it is nice to pretend.)
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'... May I say that all this is 'mythical', and not any kind of new religion or vision. As far as I know it is merely an imaginative invention, to express, in the only way I can, some of my (dim) apprehensions of the world. All I can say is that, if it were 'history' it would be difficult to fit the lands and events (or 'cultures') into such evidence as we possess, archaeological or geological, concerning the nearer or remoter part of what is now called Europe; though the Shire, for instance, is expressly stated to have been in this region (I p. 12)*. I could have fitted things in with greater verisimilitude, if the story had not become too far developed, before the question ever occurred to me. I doubt if there would have been much gain; and I hope the evidently long but undefined gap* in time between the Fall of Barad-dûr and our Days is sufficient for 'literary credibility', even for readers acquainted with what is known or surmised of 'pre-history'.
I have, I suppose, constructed an imaginary time, but kept my feet on my own mother-earth for place. I prefer that to the contemporary mode of seeking remote globes in 'space'. However curious, they are alien, and not lovable with the love of blood-kin.'
JRRT 1958, Letters
'... May I say that all this is 'mythical', and not any kind of new religion or vision. As far as I know it is merely an imaginative invention, to express, in the only way I can, some of my (dim) apprehensions of the world. All I can say is that, if it were 'history' it would be difficult to fit the lands and events (or 'cultures') into such evidence as we possess, archaeological or geological, concerning the nearer or remoter part of what is now called Europe; though the Shire, for instance, is expressly stated to have been in this region (I p. 12)*. I could have fitted things in with greater verisimilitude, if the story had not become too far developed, before the question ever occurred to me. I doubt if there would have been much gain; and I hope the evidently long but undefined gap* in time between the Fall of Barad-dûr and our Days is sufficient for 'literary credibility', even for readers acquainted with what is known or surmised of 'pre-history'.
I have, I suppose, constructed an imaginary time, but kept my feet on my own mother-earth for place. I prefer that to the contemporary mode of seeking remote globes in 'space'. However curious, they are alien, and not lovable with the love of blood-kin.'
JRRT 1958, Letters
As I said in the thread I linked to, I believe that many ages may have passede between the time of Tolkien's tale and ours. The Valar may have changed the shape of the lands many times.
(Of course I don't *really* believe Tolkien's world was real, but it is nice to pretend.)
Indeed following from that quote it is possible that the history of Arda could have fitted into an unknown part of our past perhaps about 10,000 years ago after the Ice Age. Perhaps Humans evolved to the Middle-earth level but then were almost wiped out back to cave-men stage by some cataclysm a few thousand years ago.
This is not all that impossible. Look what the Ancient Egyptians did 5000 years ago, and the Ancient Greeks. And Stone henge itself is a marvelously complex contruction. Its more than just something to look at. If memory serves it was some kind of device for telling time/date etc. But its very complicated and scientists are amazed how people from 5000 years ago could come up with something like that.
What I am saying is that various People in this world have had there own mini-evolutions (like the Egyptians) and created great things and then disappeared. Perhaps its not so incredible that there could be a slot allocated in our history where Middle-earth could have fitted without dispute and then fell afterwards.
Perhaps our own world began just like Arda 4 billion years or so ago and sinse then the continetal plates have changed many times and since the Elves left Middle-earth (our world as we know it) its so long ago that the stars have changed.
Perhaps I am letting my imagination get the better of me...
This is not all that impossible. Look what the Ancient Egyptians did 5000 years ago, and the Ancient Greeks. And Stone henge itself is a marvelously complex contruction. Its more than just something to look at. If memory serves it was some kind of device for telling time/date etc. But its very complicated and scientists are amazed how people from 5000 years ago could come up with something like that.
What I am saying is that various People in this world have had there own mini-evolutions (like the Egyptians) and created great things and then disappeared. Perhaps its not so incredible that there could be a slot allocated in our history where Middle-earth could have fitted without dispute and then fell afterwards.
Perhaps our own world began just like Arda 4 billion years or so ago and sinse then the continetal plates have changed many times and since the Elves left Middle-earth (our world as we know it) its so long ago that the stars have changed.
Perhaps I am letting my imagination get the better of me...
How fun! Those are the kind of ideas I have been playing with as well. 
No harm in dreaming. Those who have both feet firmly planted on the ground, stand still.
No harm in dreaming. Those who have both feet firmly planted on the ground, stand still.
And if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to....
Glorifindel:
Please back up your statements with quotes and sources, otherwise they're just worthless.
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Tolkien said that America was once the Landof the Gates of Morning and on the west coast stood the Rockies.
Tolkien said that America was once the Landof the Gates of Morning and on the west coast stood the Rockies.
Please back up your statements with quotes and sources, otherwise they're just worthless.
Lord of all made a brilliant point that the egyptians made extraordinary things and then dissapeared
I am always amazed by those giant sculptures of - not quite sure what animal. There are two of them side by side with a space in between and they are very large. Perhaps some people know what I am babbling about.
are you talking about those big statues in persia that look like a man at first but from the side the have the body of a lion and wings
Possibly. But I have seen them with Pyrimids in the background. Perhaps it was just on some film or other.
there is a half lion half man statue outside a pyramid in eygpt called a sphinx said to gaurd the pharoa within
That may well be it. Amazing how 5000 years ago men could create such a thing.
How did the ancients in England and Peru know how to make their giant pictures on the ground that are much more understandable when viewed from the air?
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How did the ancients in England and Peru know how to make their giant pictures on the ground that are much more understandable when viewed from the air?
How did the ancients in England and Peru know how to make their giant pictures on the ground that are much more understandable when viewed from the air?
Because they were standing on the shoulders of giants.
Obviously they had no means of viewing them directly from above but maybe from any nearby cliffs or mountains? Only thing I can think of. Otherwise this is yet another marvel of ancient peoples that we have no answer for.
Those Nazcan marks in the desert are very mysterious. They did it in a middle of an desert and no mountains or cliffs nearby, what did they use? Could of they made flying machine? I don't know but they found an aeroplane, very old one that was unlike any design today. It was sleek and aerodynamic but it was in a triangular shape. My father told me that the triangular design was very aerodynamic. And that ruined aeroplane, discovered in the 1950s seemed hundreds of years old. Could that plane found in the middle of the Peruvian jungle could be the Nazca's plane? And I found that in one of the legends of Mu and Atlantis, is that these two continents, with their people destroyed each other in an Thermonuclear war. They found stone ruins in the Pacific in southern Japan, under 400m of water and many others in the Bermudas and in the south pacific. Why? Could they of been an advanced civilization before the Egyptians? Could it be real possibility?
I won't say its an impossibility but the fossil and archeological evidence to prove this is thus far almost non-existant.
Yes, and the scientific community still blame Indiana Jones and Lara Croft for that.
A lot of history was lost during the last Ice Age; whose to say those glaciers didn't grind out an ancient city or two; especially if the ice age was caused by a thermonuclear war over ten thousand years ago. Something to consider anyway.
I personally don't believe the idea that there were peoples advanced beyond the level of the Egyptians and ones discussed already simply becuase of the evolutionary evidence we have thus far. I am a little wan on the recent ancient history (the Dinosaur, Mesozoic Era being my area of knowledge) but we seem to have a pretty full evolutionary development since the first Homo Sapians. There are no indications that the Human brain has ever been as evolved as ours prior to now.
However its not impossible that being the true Humans started to be perhaps Human-like races existed prior to now and then there evoluationary lined failed and is wholly seperate from Ours. Another words perhaps this isn't the first time Human-like creatures evolved.
However its not impossible that being the true Humans started to be perhaps Human-like races existed prior to now and then there evoluationary lined failed and is wholly seperate from Ours. Another words perhaps this isn't the first time Human-like creatures evolved.
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perhaps this isn't the first time Human-like creatures evolved.
perhaps this isn't the first time Human-like creatures evolved.
as in Elves I take it... My idea is that it depended on the "solidity" of the Earth.. or the fullness of the reality of it. In other words, the species is the same but the condition of their perception of the world around them was different... but that should be for another thread.
I think that the Undying Lands are clearly in another Dimension... My impression was that rather than Aman being "taken up" like a flying saucer... That the flat span of the Western Ocean was wrapped around backwards to the Eastern Ocean and the world was made round.... so some kind of large time/space phenomenon apparently took place that altered the geography to a larger degree than before. Did not the Valar lose a bit of their direct influence as well after that?
I remember something about the "Sun Lands" .. maybe that was a fan fiction map.. but it looked remarkably like the Americas.
This map is wonderful
http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/middle-earth.jpg
A very clever map, The Shire is directly where I live... I get all the Pipeweed! 
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A very clever map, The Shire is directly where I live... I get all the Pipeweed!
A very clever map, The Shire is directly where I live... I get all the Pipeweed!
LOL
I'm astounded with the Northern inversion on the Map that puts a lot of the action around the Scandinavian/Germanic regions which makes sense.
I'm ready to go to Iceland and find the Ruins of Gondolin.
Numenor is kind of like Atlantis. Both having been swallowed up by the sea, or some such thing? But I'm not sure I'd call Atlantis a part of "our" geography.
Tolkien does several times does refer to Numenor as 'Numenor-Atlantis'. Beyond any doubt was it based on 'the Lost City'.
The tale in The Lost Road makes me wonder,
about an Englishman who has dreams of a lost island kingdom far West that had an evil downfall and he starts waking up and interpreting his dreams and learning these strange languages from them... He eventually ages and passes the knowledge onto his son. hehe
about an Englishman who has dreams of a lost island kingdom far West that had an evil downfall and he starts waking up and interpreting his dreams and learning these strange languages from them... He eventually ages and passes the knowledge onto his son. hehe