The Most Long Lived Man

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TomBombadillo
Posts: 2746

The Most Long Lived Man

Post#1 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Well I put Tom Bombadil for that one at the quiz because I didn't have a clue, but I don't suppose you can count him as a "man". But is Elros? I wonder... It's a very good question though.
Denial is not a river in Africa.

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Aulë
Posts: 1232

The Most Long Lived Man

Post#3 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Of course Elros is a man! He accepted the Gift of Men.....that makes you a MAN!!! And Elros was a great and long lived man!nn[Edited on 29/4/2003 by Aulë]
Life's a piece of sheit, when you look at it
Life's a laugh and death's a joke, it's true
You'll see its all a show, people laughin as you go
Just remember that the last laugh is on you

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Lasgalen
Posts: 74

The Most Long Lived Man

Post#4 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Where does Tuor fit into the picture? If he was allowed into Valinor and counted among Eldar, does that mean he is no longer a Man? If he is still a Man, how long did he live? :elfconfused:

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Aulë
Posts: 1232

The Most Long Lived Man

Post#5 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Hey about Tuor....if he was counted amongst the elves did he grow pointy ears or what??
Life's a piece of sheit, when you look at it

Life's a laugh and death's a joke, it's true

You'll see its all a show, people laughin as you go

Just remember that the last laugh is on you

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grondmaster
Posts: 25451

The Most Long Lived Man

Post#6 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Hey about Tuor....if he was counted amongst the elves did he grow pointy ears or what??
Naw, I think he had to settle for just a pointy beard. :elfwink:
'Share and enjoy'

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Lasgalen
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The Most Long Lived Man

Post#7 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Or maybe a pointy head. :P:

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Aulë
Posts: 1232

The Most Long Lived Man

Post#8 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Hehehe.....well...then he must be an odd looking elf:P: round ears:D
Life's a piece of sheit, when you look at it

Life's a laugh and death's a joke, it's true

You'll see its all a show, people laughin as you go

Just remember that the last laugh is on you

ElwëÞindikollo
Posts: 1

The Most Long Lived Man

Post#9 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

The 'Published Silmarillion' rather vague on Tuor's fate. However Letter #153 (Letters of Tolkien) says;

Túor weds Idril the daughter of Turgon King of Gondolin; and 'it is supposed' (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish limited 'immortality': an exception either way


Of course this quote is little help, it continues the ambiguous nature of the statement in the 'Published Silmarillion', but later on Tolkien states;

"...it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God."


So here Tolkien explicitly states Tuor became a Elf.

Hey about Tuor....if he was counted amongst the elves did he grow pointy ears or what??


Tolkien never candidly says that Elves had pointy ears.

We also get this quote from the 'Etymology' from HoME 5.

LAS(1)- *lasse leaf: Q lasse, N lhass; Q lasselanta leaf-fall, autumn, N lhasbelin (*lassekwelene), cf. Q Narqelion [KWEL]. Lhasgalen Greenleaf, Gnome name of Laurelin. (Some think this is related to the next and * lasse 'ear' . The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf. shaped than [?human].)


But some of this quote was hard to decipher and C.T often made his own additions to the 'Etymology' so we don't know if Tolkien or C.T wrote it.


In 'Letter 27; Letters of Tolkien, Tolkien states:

I picture a fairly human figure, not a kind of 'fairy' rabbit as some of my British reviewers seem to fancy: fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; hair short and curling (brown).


The 'Elves' mentioned here are not the ones of Tolkien’s legendarium, since they were not widely known but it was the widely held picture of 'Elves' in those times. The 'Elves' of popular legend then were of course wholly incongruent from the ones in Tolkien's legendarium. The creatures 'Elfs' were used by Shakespeare and Keats, in some poems.

Well I put Tom Bombadil for that one at the quiz because I didn't have a clue, but I don't suppose you can count him as a "man".


Tom isn't a 'Man', he was around before the race of Men came into existence. He is a enigma.

Of course Elros is a man! He accepted the Gift of Men.....that makes you a MAN!!! And Elros was a great and long lived man!


In this account, only Elros was granted a peculiar longevity, and it is said here that he and his brother Elrond were not differently endowed in the physical potential of life, but that since Elros elected to remain among the kindred of Men he retained the chief characteristic of Men as opposed to the Quendi: the "seeking else-whither," as the Eldar called it, the "weariness" or desire to depart from the world. It is further expounded that the increase in the Númenórean span was brought about by assimilation of their mode of life to that of the Eldar: though they were expressly warned that they had not become Eldar, but remained mortal Men, and had been granted only an extension of the period of their vigour of mind and body

Line of Elros; U.T


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MelliotSandybanks
Posts: 1517

The Most Long Lived Man

Post#10 » Thu Jan 22, 2004 6:53 am

[Grondmaster began this thread with the following post.

In Valedhelgwath's Historical Quiz IV, he asked, "41) Which Man was said to have had the longest lifespan?" Along with my answers I sent him the following:

: I have always assumed Elros was the most long lived, but finally found the text in UT Part Two, Section III, Paragraph I.

On a similar note, how old was the Witch-king of Angmar when he was no longer considered a man or was he never of Mankind? Did his ring also extend his mortal life? He invaded Arnor in 1409 TA and was defeated at Farnost in 1975 TA, which makes him older than 566 years. And then of course he wasn't de-crowned until 3018 TA, but of course by then he was a wraith. Has anyone ever considered this or am I ploughing virgin ground here? Should I post this question in the Forum, before or after your quiz deadline, or am I showing my ignorance again?


To which Valedhelgwath replied:

: That's a very good point, Grondy. I went with what I read in that section you mentioned in UT, but you have a valid point with the witchking. The Nazgul were said to have first appeared in SA2251 (and by Nazgul, I am assuming wraith rather than a man with a ring). As Sauron took the 9 rings in SA1697 it is possible the witchking was quite old before he became a wraith (potentially 500 years plus whatever he was when he was given the ring.)

What is likely, however, is that the Mouth of Sauron has lived longer as a man (as opposed to wraith) than either the witchking or Elros. If anyone gives me this latter as an answer I won't mark them wrong for it. As for the forum, I don't really mind if you raise this question now. It's only one question and could raise an interesting debate


To which I replied:

: Okay. So the Witch-king could have been 554 plus years old and I just chose the wrong M-e age, but had the right idea. And you are probably right about the Mouth of Sauron being older, but if even he can't remember who he is, how will we ever know?


Today I finally got around to posting the above. Does anyone else have any ideas or comments they would like to add to this discussion?


Mellie replied

I was debating that point with someone while we were working on the quiz. We were not sure if the Mouth of Sauron or the Witch King could be considered human or not. We also debated about Elros, because he was still half-elven. Therefore, we went through several men, of ME and we finally decided that Elros was the oldest.


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