Galadriel and the Istari

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valedhelgwath
Posts: 4233

Galadriel and the Istari

Post#1 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

It's true that Galadriel and Gandalf seem to be very close friends in LOTR, but it is also possible that Gandalf won her trust slowly after he arrived in Middle-Earth in the third age and that they slowly began to trust each other.
On pages 249-250 of UT, it tells how Gandalf went to Galadriel after he had come to Middle Earth, and they had a long discussion. During this talk he gave to her the Elessar stone as a token from Yavanna to lessen her burden in Middle Earth. This is the same stone which was later given to Aragorn. By then of course, Galadriel had her Ring to lessen her burdens.
I don't know whether Olorin was a Maia of Irmo, i thought he was a Maia of Nienna.
Again from UT page 397
.... it is said that Olorin was "counsellor of Irmo", and that in the hearts of those who hearkened to him awoke thoughts of fair things that had not yet been but might yet be made for the enrichment of Arda.
From the Silmarillion page 34
Wisest of the Maiar was Olorin. He too dwelt long in Lorien (home of Irmo), but his ways took him often to the house of Nienna, and of her he learned pity and patience.
. At Manwe's council, Olorin was selected to go to Middle Earth by Manwe and Varda. I'm of the belief, Olorin was the Maiar of no Valar in particular, but that he served and learned from several of them.

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Amarië
Posts: 2785

Galadriel and the Istari

Post#2 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Anyway, i'm more likely to think that Galadriel didn't notice that Olorin was a Maia even if they met.
I'm not so sure about that, don't forget that Galadriel was close friends with the maia Melian, wife of Thingol. Knowing one Maia in "disguize", might very well be usefull to recognize another maia.

Círdan the Shipwright, Elrond and Galadriel where the keepers of the three great elven Rings. Círdan recongnized Olórin as the greatest of the Istari and gave him the elven ring Nenya. Círdan told Elrond (who also had a Ring) about Olórin, and I'm sure Elrond would have told Galadriel about such an important matter as one of the rings of power shifting hands. Even if she didn't regonzice Gandalf as an Maia, and if she hadn't heard it from Elrond, then she would at least sense that he had Nenya.
"Don't complain under the stars
about the lack of bright spots in you life."
Henrik Wergeland, Norwegian writer

filipa
Posts: 15

Galadriel and the Istari

Post#3 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

I too don't know wether Olorin was a Maia of Irmo or a Maia of Nienna, but I sure know he didn't bear Nenya, but Narya.

namarie

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Amarië
Posts: 2785

Galadriel and the Istari

Post#4 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

he didn't bear Nenya, but Narya
Hehe silly me, you are right of course, it was just me not paying attention to what I'm doing.
"Don't complain under the stars

about the lack of bright spots in you life."

Henrik Wergeland, Norwegian writer

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virumor
Posts: 3567

Galadriel and the Istari

Post#5 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

I'm not so sure about that, don't forget that Galadriel was close friends with the maia Melian, wife of Thingol. Knowing one Maia in "disguize", might very well be usefull to recognize another maia.

Melian wasn't in disguise, she was a Maia in a human form. But it wasn't really a secret : every one knew Elu Thingol married a Maia. And she and Galadriel met after Galadriel left Valinor, so after she possibly met Olorin.

Círdan recongnized Olórin as the greatest of the Istari and gave him the elven ring Nenya. Círdan told Elrond (who also had a Ring) about Olórin, and I'm sure Elrond would have told Galadriel about such an important matter as one of the rings of power shifting hands. Even if she didn't regonzice Gandalf as an Maia, and if she hadn't heard it from Elrond, then she would at least sense that he had Nenya.

Cirdan didn't really recognize him as a Maia, he only saw (before no one saw deeper and further than him) that Gandalf was the wisest of the Istari who arrived at Mithlond and that he would have a lot of trouble and work coming his way --- that's why he gave him Narya (not Nenya).

Anyway, i was asking myself if Galadriel would have recognized Olorin as a Maia if they met in Tirion, not in Lothlorien.
I am pretty sure Gandalf visited Lothlorien soon after he arrived in Middle-Earth and told Galadriel he was sent by Manwë and Varda.
nn[Edited on 7/12/2003 by virumor]
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

JonnieA
Posts: 54

Galadriel and the Istari

Post#6 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Thanks everyone for your interesting and informative replies.
I agree with Virumor that I am sure Galadriel must have know Gandalf was Maia - what else can he be if he has come out fo the West with a postBody and a token for her? The same goes for Cirdan - if a ship arrives out of the West but the passengers are not Elves, they must be Maia. So basically the whole of the White Council would have known abaout it, but probably never spoke about it except one to one in private, and even then probably in guarded terms.

JonnieA
Posts: 54

Galadriel and the Istari

Post#7 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

I have (finally) got my copies of LOTR, The Sil and UT down from my den and next to the computer so I can look things up properly instead of relying on memory!

Val, you are quite right about the section on P249-250 of UT regarding the chat between Gandalf and Galadriel at some unsepcified time after his arrival in Middle-earth. I have also re-read the section on the Istari in UT and can suggest the following answer to my own question:

Galadriel probably got to know most of the Maia in Aman before Feanor's revolt, as she was always thirsty for knowledge and they could teach her much. It is possible that Olorin (Gandalf) was a particular friend, as he is noted as 'a lover of the Eldar that remained' after the revolt. It seems to me that you do not have to stretch this idea too far for him to have also been a friend to the Noldor before their flight.

When the Istari are selected by Manwe, Olorin is reluctant to go because of his fear of Sauron, which is exactly why Manwe picks him. Olorin is in various places connected with both Irmo and Nienna, suggesting understanding and compassion, which is fully backed by his manner in LOTR. This shows in particular in his attitude to Gollum, Boromir and Saruman - basically those who should be heroes but aren't (quite).

UT strongly suggests that the Istari did not all arrive in Middle-earth together, as Saruman is in several places referred to as the 'first' of them, and on P389 Cirdan is said to have seen their 'landings' - note the plural. (I must admit I have previously always thought of them arriving on the same ship, but it appears I was wrong.)

It is also said on P388-389 that '..they came from over the Sea out of the Uttermost West; though this was for long known only to Cirdan..'. Two important points here: the Istari were initially secretive about their origins, but eventually people other than Cirdan discovered or guessed the truth.

It is certain the Gandalf revealled his true self to Galadriel, though the timing is unclear - perhaps she had already guessed the truth, prehaps not. On P249 of UT they have their little chat: '...on a time Olorin came to Galadriel....and they had long speech together. For the years of her exile began to lie heavy on the Lady of the Noldor, and she longed for news of her kin and for the blessed land of her birth...And when Olorin had told her many postThreadIDings...'
In other words she catches up on the goings on of her friends and family who are mutual acqaintences of them both.

So in summary Galadriel and Gandalf probably were friends in Aman, and resumed their friendship in Middle-earth.

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grondmaster
Posts: 25451

Galadriel and the Istari

Post#8 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

JonnieA, this is no biggie, just a suggestion: When giving page numbers you also might give the publisher and edition of the book, or also give the page number that the chapter starts on. For in one of my copies of UT (First Ballantine Edition, September 1988), 'The Istari' doesn't start until page 405; though, your page numbers do agree with my Houghton Mifflin 1980 Edition. :happyelf:

I often only cite the approximate number of pages into a chapter or before the end of a chapter rather than giving page numbers, because there are so many editions of Tolkiens books available to our members.

'Share and enjoy'

LadyFeawen
Posts: 1682

Galadriel and the Istari

Post#9 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

I don't have much to add but I thought I should say I've appreciated very much how JonnieA and the rest of you have made your posts so informative on this subject and that I've learned alot from reading your posts. Keep up the great work! :)
I was born to catch dragons in their dens
And pick flowers
To tell tales and laugh away the morning
To drift and dream like a lazy stream
And walk barefoot across sunshine days.

JonnieA
Posts: 54

Galadriel and the Istari

Post#10 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Thanks Lady Feawen!

Yes, Grondmaster, I know you are right but the post was getting a bit long anyway.

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