Westron+Khuzdul Names

madame tortilla
Posts: 7

Westron+Khuzdul Names

Post#1 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:07 am

We know that Bilbo Baggins is translated to "Bilba Labingi" in Westron, but what about the translation into the dwarf language? If anyone could help me with this, I would ask if you could tell me the names of the dwarves in the Company of Thorin Oakenshield in both Westron and Khuzdul, plus Gandalf and Bilbo's name. I'm quite curious about this, didn't seem to find much about it.

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brego
Posts: 1275

Westron+Khuzdul Names

Post#2 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:29 pm


mmmm I could be wrong, however I think all characters names, at least those we are familiar with are indeed in Westron. Those who used Westron as there Mother tongue still called other races by there actual names, sometimes with small changes. 



Example Legolas is called Legolas by Gimli, Frodo, Gandalf and Aragorn even though his name is Sindarin. Would not Gimli be called Gimli by his Father Gloin when speaking Khuzdul.


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galin
Posts: 1369

Westron+Khuzdul Names

Post#3 » Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:25 am



Brego wrote: '(...) Would not Gimli be called Gimli by his Father Gloin when speaking Khuzdul.'




No, as Gimli is an Old Norse name, and thus a 'modern' translation. Gimli's actual mannish name, which was in a northern language, is unknown to the reader, like other Dwarf-names.




Madame Tortilla wrote: '(...) I would ask if you could tell me the names of the dwarves in the Company of Thorin Oakenshield in both Westron and Khuzdul, plus Gandalf and Bilbo's name.'




We don't know Gandalf's name in Westron, but Tharkûn seems to be an actual Dwarvish name for him.



With respect to 'Bilba Labingi' I would just caution that while Bilba is Bilbo's real Westron name, 'Labingi' comes from a draft text and wasn't used for the final, published account appearing in The Return of the King.



We know Tolkien felt a bit rushed with the Appendices, but it's hard to say if something from the drafts was left out for reasons other than being simply rejected.



glorfindel
Posts: 285

Westron+Khuzdul Names

Post#4 » Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:39 pm

I believe all the names we see in the books are "modern" translation of the middle earth language.

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galin
Posts: 1369

Westron+Khuzdul Names

Post#5 » Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:37 pm


If you mean just in The Hobbit, many names are modern translations, yes; although the names Elrond and Galion are not, for two examples anyway.


glorfindel
Posts: 285

Westron+Khuzdul Names

Post#6 » Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:28 pm

Yes Galin, those 2 names aren't "modern" names. I was referring to the dwarf and hobbit names from both The Hobbit and LOTR.


Tolkien probably didn't want to translate the elvish names because he wanted to preserve his invented language through the elves. Besides to the the readers, elrond wouldn't be that appealing if he was being called Lord Star-Cave.

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brego
Posts: 1275

Westron+Khuzdul Names

Post#7 » Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:26 pm

What are you saying Galin? All characters, despite numerous stating that "common speak" is spoken by most free folk isnt actually modern English? What im saying is that Tolkien expects us to believe that the characters are indeed speaking English/ Westron unless they are speaking Elvish ( including dialects) Dwavish or Black speach. Therefore the names we know and read are indeed Westron. As you say Tolkien never states that Westron isnt English, so why think anything else.

elanorraine
Posts: 306

Westron+Khuzdul Names

Post#8 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:12 am


LotR, RotK, Appendix F, I, "The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age",



I, Of Other Races, Dwarves:




"...in secret ... they used their own strange tongue ... they tended it and guarded it as a treasure of the past. Few of other race have succeeded in learning it. ... it appears only in such place-names as Gimli revealed to his companions; and in the battle cry which he uttered... 



...Gimli's own name, however, and the names of all his kin, are of Northern (Mannish) origin. Their own secret and 'inner' names, their true names, the Dwarves have never revealed to an one of alien race. Not even on their tombs to they inscribe them."




 



II, "On Translation":




In presenting the matter ... as a history for people of today to read, the whole of the linguistic setting has been translated as far as possible into terms of our own times. Only the languages alien to the Common Speech have been left in their original form; but these appear mainly in the names of persons and places. 



The Common Speech, as the language of the Hobbits and theair narratives, has inevitably been turned into modern English. 




elanorraine
Posts: 306

Westron+Khuzdul Names

Post#9 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:14 am


In other words, using the Appendix F, it seems that 



A) we'll never know the Khuzdul names of Gimli and friends;



B) Westron is NOT English



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galin
Posts: 1369

Westron+Khuzdul Names

Post#10 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:58 am


By the way there are some examples where Tolkien himself arguably 'tripped' with respect to his own translation conceit; or possibly just couldn't help himself [having his fun] in any case.



But we won't look at those... too closely ;)



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