Elf-dwarf love

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grondmaster
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Elf-dwarf love

Post#1 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Welcome to our forum Morel. :happyelf:

I moved your topic from [u]The Silmarillion[/u] to here, as we actually read about Celeborn's displeasure in LotR: FotR. (If anyone feels I should have left this thread over under [u]The Silmarillion[/u] let me know; I can move it back.)

However it is in the Sil and the Unfinished Tales that we read about some of the reasons for this displeasure. Such as The Dwarves closing the doors of Moria to the Elves at the end of the S.A. 17th Century in their time of need when Sauron was laying waste to Eregion; and also that the Dwarves in their thirst for mithril delved to deeply under Moria and stirred up the evil that lurked there, the Balrog, at the end of the T.A. 20th Century.

Luckily for the Fellowship, Galadriel was cooler and said something like, 'But that was then and this is now,' which calmed down Celeborn.
'Share and enjoy'

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virumor
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Elf-dwarf love

Post#2 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

And don't forget that the Dwarves slew Elu Thingol and destroyed Doriath the first time - and Elu Thingol was Celeborn's uncle.
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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uruk_slayer
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Elf-dwarf love

Post#3 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

I didn't think Thingol was Celeborn's uncle but more of a second cousin. Otherwise, Celeborn and Galadriel would barely have been second cousins themselves!

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PlasticSquirrel
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Elf-dwarf love

Post#4 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

How do you figure that Uruk? I don't know all the lineages myself, but I know Galadriel was of the Noldor and thus nothing at all to do with Thingol, at least i though I did, please expound your theory for me....
http://www.plasticsquirrel.co.uk for all your bizarre music and musings needs

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Elfstone
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Elf-dwarf love

Post#5 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Anyone who has read UT, and specifically The History Of Galadriel And Celeborn, knows that in all of Tolkien’s writings regarding the history of M.E., there is no part more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn.

As Plastic rightly pointed out, Galadriel was of the Noldor (in fact greatest of all the Noldor save for Feanor, but greatest of all Elven woman), and depending on which version you personally choose to cling to, Celeborn was either a Nandorin Elf (one of the Teleri who refused to cross the Misty Mountains on the great journey from Cuivienen), or one of the Sindar.

There is also a wholly different story on Galadriel and Celeborn which was one of J.R.R.'s last writings on the subject, and according to Christopher Tolkien, one of his father's last on M.E., written in the last month of his life before he died. This version has Celeborn and Galadriel meeting in Alqualonde (contradictory to the version in The Silmarillion, where they met in Doriath), and Celeborn is a Telerin prince, grandson of Olwe of Alqualonde, and thus would have been one of Galadriel’s close kinsmen.

So again, it’s just a matter of which version one chooses to cling to, and depending on which one you prefer, Galadriel and Celeborn may, or may not have been related. Since the versions in UT come from unpublished (at the time of J.R.R.’s death), and unfinished writings, I personally choose to refer to the version in The Silmarillion, since it comes from a completed narrative, and also since it eliminates all of the problems (although I do like the last version Tolkien was working on, because that version has Galadriel taking no part whatsoever in Feanor’s revolt).

In the version in the Sil., Celeborn and Galadriel meet in Doriath, and Celeborn is the kinsman of Thingol, and of the Sindar. Getting back to the main topic of this thread, in addition to the reasons that Grondy has already listed, the fact that Celeborn was a kinsman of Thingol’s, and resided in Doriath, would have been major factor's as to why he was so bitter towards the Dwarves, since they were responsible for the sacking of Doriath, and the murder of Thingol.

Hopefully I haven’t just added to the confusion here. I’m still far from an expert on the Elven lineages, and they can be very difficult to keep straight. Maybe Val, or someone else can come in here and do a much better job of explaining this than I have.
:elf:

"I would have the Ring-bearer bring the crown to me, and let Mithrandir set it upon my head, if he will; for he has been the mover of all that has been accomplished, and this is his victory." Elessar

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valedhelgwath
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Elf-dwarf love

Post#6 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

In the Silmarillion version, Galadriel's mother was Earwen, who in turn was daughter of Olwe of Aqualonde. Olwe was of course the brother of Elwe (Thingol). Thingol was in this case the Great Uncle of Galadriel.

The silmarillion says only of Celeborn that he was a kinsman of Thingol. If we read a version of UT, however, we find that Olwe and Elwe had a younger brother called Elmo. Celeborn was his grandson, and was thus a second cousin of Galadriel.

But back to the topic. As Grondy and Elfy have rightly said, Celeborn had many reasons to dislike the Dwarves. Their greed had resulted in the slaying of many of his kin at Belegost in Doriath, which ultimately led to the total loss of Doriath as the Sindarin realm.

Then they had shut the gates of Moria in the Second Age when the elves of Eregion had most needed their aid, and later in the Third Age, they had awakened the Balrog which now posed a threat to another of Celeborn's homes. A case of wherever the guy moved, the neighbours from hell followed him.

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Elfstone
Posts: 1502

Elf-dwarf love

Post#7 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Nice job Val! I knew you could do a better job of explaining that than me, since I'm still taking everything in myself. Plus the last two weeks have been insanely stressful for me, and my brain feels like a squeezed lemon right now (or a squeezed orange that one has left in their refrigerator a bit too long, hehe)!
:elfwink:


I especially loved this,
A case of wherever the guy moved, the neighbours from hell followed him.

:hahaha:
"I would have the Ring-bearer bring the crown to me, and let Mithrandir set it upon my head, if he will; for he has been the mover of all that has been accomplished, and this is his victory." Elessar

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grondmaster
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Elf-dwarf love

Post#8 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

... my brain feels like a squeezed lemon right now (or a squeezed orange that one has left in their refrigerator a bit too long, ...
Is that worse than the effect of drinking a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster?
... the effect of drinking a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster is like having your brains smashed out by a slice of lemon wrapped around a large gold brick. - Douglas Adams
:elfbiggrin:

Yup, Celeborn was paranoid when it came to Dwarves as neighbors.
'Share and enjoy'

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uruk_slayer
Posts: 158

Elf-dwarf love

Post#9 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

I'll understand if i don't see this post again but maybe Celeborn had some issues with the dwarves that were of a different nature. it's said that:

Very tall was the Lord Celeborn


Maybe he was tall but didn't have the girth of a dwarf...Maybe he didn't like the way Gimli was looking at Galadriel...Maybe I should shut up...

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virumor
Posts: 3567

Elf-dwarf love

Post#10 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Celeborn cannot blame Gimli : Galadriel was the first beardless woman Gimli ever saw in his life, so :P

Of course, Gimli was in Rivendell too at the Council of Elrond so there he should have seen many beardless women too normally.
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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