Gandalf and the Balrog

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rednell
Posts: 1798

Gandalf and the Balrog

Post#1 » Sun Apr 18, 2004 10:14 am

Mihai Posted Sunday 18th April 2004 (03:13pm)

really interesting problem.but i will post my view with another question: how does Gandalf defeat the Balrog? does he use his sword or chalanges his powers, both ring and mind?


Welcome Mihai to PT forums. I have created a thread for your questions as they make an interesting topic and were off-topic in the Death of the Witch-king thread
:moderator: Rednell :moderator:

So to repeat Mihai's questions:

how does Gandalf defeat the Balrog? does he use his sword or chalanges his powers, both ring and mind?

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virumor
Posts: 3567

Gandalf and the Balrog

Post#2 » Sun Apr 18, 2004 12:41 pm

Gandalf killed the Balrog by throwing him off the pinnacle of the Celebdil, outside Durin's Tower. Chapter The White Rider.

Of course, there were swords involved : at the bridge of Khazâd-Dûm the Balrog attacked with a flaming sword, but Gandalf parried the attack with Glamdring. But i see it more as a battle of wills, as Gandalf says "swords are no more use here" to Aragorn before the duel and also the fact that Gandalf refers to "i am a servant of the flame of Anor". Maybe Gandalf channels his powers into Glamdring or something, as -like the Balrog- he is also bound to a mortal body.

Anyway, Gandalf used his sword to hack into the Balrog and chase him to the peak of the Celebdil, so he must've wounded the Balrog's body for sure. Maybe, like with the case of the death of the Witch-King of Angmar, again "normal swords " are no more use against a Balrog. Glamdring wasn't a normal sword, forged by Elves.
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

loni
Posts: 1519

Gandalf and the Balrog

Post#3 » Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:04 pm

That's a very good question. But I think he didn't use his sword much at all, and somehow threw him on the mountainside, but how is a different matter. I haven't the foggiest notion.

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grondmaster
Posts: 25451

Gandalf and the Balrog

Post#4 » Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:13 pm

Well I don't think the elven smiths added any truely magical power to Glamdring, other than its turning blue in the presence of Orckind; just as I don't think Telchar, the dwarfen smith of Nogrod, added anything special to Narsil/Anduril, other than his love of finely made ironwork. But that doesn't mean I'm right either.

That said, Gandalf also had his staff—unless it was broken when he sundered the bridge of Khazad-dûm—with which he could thump the Balrog one-up-side the head or poke it in the eye. For we know the rediculous "repulsion" spells, shown in the films, came not from Tolkien's pen, but from the screenwriters' imaginations.

And a weilder of the Secret Fire shouldn't cast "flame strike" at a Balrog for that's only adding to its power; you've got to use cold based spells against fiery beasts of the Balrogs ilk. :tongueelf:
'Share and enjoy'

elessarmau
Posts: 10

Gandalf and the Balrog

Post#5 » Wed Apr 21, 2004 4:44 am

If you remember in the fall of Gondolin Glorofindel also battled a balrog and guss how he defeated him he threw himself and the balrog over a cliff. Maybe that's the trick in killing balrogs just push them of a mountain and be done with it :)

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lord aelric
Posts: 546

Gandalf and the Balrog

Post#6 » Wed Apr 21, 2004 5:17 am

Secret Fire is merely a term given to the school of magic that is dichotomously opposite to the practice of Sorcery.

The Flame of Anor, a Wizard spell and Elven power of great potency - it is not composed of elemental Flame in the sense you're thinking Grondy, but it is more akin to the channeling of pure Light/Goodness if you will, and is as such a formidable weapon in opposing enemies of the Shadow!

My take on the subject of the Balrog's defeat by Gandalf is little more Abstract. And as such i must think hard on how I can explain... hmmm back later lol

:smoke:

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virumor
Posts: 3567

Gandalf and the Balrog

Post#7 » Wed Apr 21, 2004 8:47 am

Well I don't think the elven smiths added any truely magical power to Glamdring, other than its turning blue in the presence of Orckind; just as I don't think Telchar, the dwarfen smith of Nogrod, added anything special to Narsil/Anduril, other than his love of finely made ironwork. But that doesn't mean I'm right either.

But what i was trying to say is that Gandalf perhaps channeled some of his power ('magic' if you will, long live D&D fantasy heh) in his sword. For at least he used Glamdring to parry the attack when the Balrog tried to hit Gandalf with his flaming sword.

His staff he merely uses to make the bridge break (and not to light the place up, which was the case in the crappies/movies). Obviously with mentioning that "swords are no more use here" and his referring to the "flame of Anor" he refers to the fact that normal mortals are unable to pick up the gauntlet against Balrogs but that any Ainu power is needed to be able to topple them. After all, the origin of Balrogs is Ainu too. Even Aragorn wouldn't be able to send them to their doom.

Again, Balrogs can be killed by just mortally wound them. Gandalf did that by throwing the vile creature off the peak of the Celebdil, same like Glorfindel killed his Balrog. Other Balrog-slayers like Ecthelion of Gondolin used pointy helmets compared with charging like a raged bull into a red flag/flame. But to be able to do this, you must at least have some Ainu power. The Elves had that as the only ones of the Eruhir. Bless 'em.
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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Vee
Posts: 2711

Gandalf and the Balrog

Post#8 » Fri Apr 23, 2004 3:04 am

His staff he merely uses to make the bridge break (and not to light the place up, which was the case in the crappies/movies).


Not quite (although I can't recall how much light there was in the film but I suppose filming in complete darkness is a bit of a problem) - Gandalf used his staff for light during the journey through Moria described as 'will-o'-the-wisp' and on the bridge of Khazad-dum

Glamdring glittered white in answer. There was a ringing clash and a stab of white fire.


The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand. A blinding sheet of white flame sprang up.


The light came from somewhere - I think from the broken staff.

I agree that the Balrog was killed by the fall after much fighting involving swords (I assume Gandalf hung onto Glamdring somehow)

and ever I hewed him


which Gandalf did when the balrog's fire was quenched, and magic as suggested above by Aelric and Vir.

Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. ... A great smoke rose about us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain.

helmthh
Posts: 26

Gandalf and the Balrog

Post#9 » Wed Apr 28, 2004 7:34 am

Here's another take on this, don't you think that, once Gandalf found out the evil in Moria was a Balrog, that it had to be dealt with like Smaug before Sauron could use it against the Elves and Men? Unlike the movie, we know that Gandalf did not know what the evil was that laid in Moria, but, again unlike the movie, in the book he did seem anxious to go there (by his goading of Aragorn at the failure to successfully pass Caedhros (sp?)) to find out what the evil was.

Also, LOTR could have changed really quick had the Balrog gotten ahold of the Ring.

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grondmaster
Posts: 25451

Gandalf and the Balrog

Post#10 » Wed Apr 28, 2004 5:49 pm

I felt that Galdalf wanted to consider using Moria over the Pass and the Gap because it would be harder for Saruman's spies to spot them, not because he actually wanted to go there.
'Since our open attempt on the mountain-pass our plight has become more desparaye, I fear. I see now little hope, if we do not soon vanish from sight for a while, and cover our trail. Therefore I advise that we should go neither over the mountains, nor round them, but under them. That is the road at any rate that the Enemy will least expect us to take.' ...........
...........
'And I don't wish to enter it even once,' said Pippin.
'Nor me,' muttered Sam.
'Of course not!' said Gandalf. 'Who would? But the question is: who will follow me, if I lead you there?'
'Share and enjoy'

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