Power of the Rings of Power

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Lord Of All
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Power of the Rings of Power

Post#51 » Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:48 pm

Sauron recovered 3 of the Dwarven Rings whilst the rest were consumed in Dragon Fire.

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virumor
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Power of the Rings of Power

Post#52 » Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:54 pm

A small correction Mellon - only three of the Nazgul were Kings, not all nine.

Where did you come upon this information, if I may ask?

They were all great Kings of Men, or Sauron wouldn't have bestowed the Nine to them.
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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mellon
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Power of the Rings of Power

Post#53 » Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:01 pm

They were all great Kings of Men

I thought so too ...at least that is what I 've read in the books .Maybe LoA has another book/copy ?

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Lord Of All
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Power of the Rings of Power

Post#54 » Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:15 pm

I know the quote you two are getting confused with. Its here:

"Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old."

They became mighty in their day - thats not to say all were Kings. Indeed 6 were Warriors and sorcerers.
Forgive me but I cannot locate at the moment the quote where it says only 3 were Kings. It is just one of those 'known things'. I will try to get it for you however.

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Túrin Turambar
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Power of the Rings of Power

Post#55 » Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:26 pm

It is stated in the Akallabêth
'...among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenórean race'
Indeed three of these names are Númenórean in form: Murazor, Akhorahil and Adunaphel.

so believe when Tolkien mentions somewhere in LOTR that the Nazguls were 'Kings' of men he is merely stating they were very powerful among men, and doesn't necessarily mean they were all Kings.

However I'm probably wrong and All 9 of them were Kings but only 3 of them are worthy of Tolkien giving them a name, as was the case, and the other 6 may have still been lords/kinds of men just not as majestic as the 3 greater Nazguls.

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mellon
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Power of the Rings of Power

Post#56 » Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:36 pm

Thank you all for responding :) No matter the debate /discussion ,I think you all answered my first question

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Lord Of All
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Power of the Rings of Power

Post#57 » Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:39 pm

Yes indeed I have pondered that myself. I could never think of Which Kings they were. In the time the Nazgul came to be Numenor was at large and we know that none of the Numenorean Kings became wraiths. I assumed that it had to be some King of the Easterlings or Haradrim but that did not seem to fit.

Your quote has addressed the matter with keeness Turin.

By king in this instance Tolkien simply meant 'Great Lord'. As we know Numenor had many Great Lords opperating at the same time as the King. It appears this is what Tolkien meant by 3 Kings.

So I suppose that the 3 'king' Nazgul were really Lords of Numenor who became 'Black Numenoreans' when sailing over to Middle-earth, thus they were ensnared.

I think we can now eliminate that they were 'all kings'. It appears that none of them were - only 3 'Great lords of Numenorean race'.

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Túrin Turambar
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Power of the Rings of Power

Post#58 » Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:37 pm

Lord of All
Your quote has addressed the matter with keeness Turin.

Thank you. :)

it really is a touchy subject, like most discussions and debates Tolkien's work, because often Tolkien's work conflicts within itself or else he never got around to finishing a specific 'chapter'.

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virumor
Posts: 3567

Power of the Rings of Power

Post#59 » Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:19 am

They became mighty in their day - thats not to say all were Kings. Indeed 6 were Warriors and sorcerers.

They became warriors, kings and sorcerors, like the quote says. Ever heard of the Witch-King of Angmar? First they were warriors/Kings and the power of their Rings made them sorcerors. Duh.

Indeed three of these names are Númenórean in form: Murazor, Akhorahil and Adunaphel.

Those names do not originate from JRRT. The only name coming from JRRT was Khamûl.

Those names you've provided come from a LOTR RPG... I think you should've read the rest of the article on the Encyclopedia of Arda where you've copied it from.

I'll post part of this article in here myself :
"[u]One of them, the second in rank after the Lord of the Nazgûl himself, was named Khamûl, and also known as the Black Easterling[/u]. [u]This is the only one of the nine Nazgûl explicitly named by Tolkien[/u].

This may come as a surprise if you've come across one of the many sources that list a set of names of the other eight: Murazor (the Witch-king himself), Dwar, Ji Indur, Akhorahil, Hoarmurath, Adunaphel, Ren and Uvatha. These names are common across the Web, and often have detailed biographies to go with them. They're also consistent with what Tolkien had to say about the origins of the Nazgûl: in the Akallabêth it is stated '...among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenórean race', and indeed three of these names are Númenórean in form: Murazor, Akhorahil and Adunaphel.

[u]None of these eight names, though, have their origins in Tolkien's own work. Instead, they come from a series of role-playing and trading card games produced by Iron Crown Enterprises. The names of Murazor, Dwar and the rest emerged from the unavoidable need for these games to develop and expand Tolkien's universe to meet the needs of the gaming fraternity. The games' popularity accounts for the regular appearance of the names, to the extent that they're now frequently presented as the 'true' names of the remaining eight Nazgûl. [/u]

Some readers have even suggested that these names are so widely accepted that they should be considered the de facto names for the eight otherwise unnamed Ringwraiths. On a personal level, or in the context of the games that spawned the names, this isn't an unreasonable approach: if Tolkien never told us the name of, say, the Witch-king, there seems little obvious harm in imagining that his name was originally Murazor (or anything else, for that matter). Things become a little more problematic where the names are published without explanation: we receive plenty of e-mail from puzzled readers trying to work out which of Tolkien's books the names come from (hence this entry in the FAQ). "


Hence I am sorry to say that the argument about 3 Kings is incorrect. Somebody may be confusing this with a certain movie starring George Clooney et al. I take it they were all Kings, but the other 6 were Kings of the Easterlings or Haradrim.

:moderator: Next time, please try to not rip quotes out of context just to be proven right but try to give the entire quote. And please, do post where the quote comes from. Thank you. :moderator:
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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Lord Of All
Posts: 633

Power of the Rings of Power

Post#60 » Wed Dec 20, 2006 2:45 pm

My first quote clearly say They were 'Kings, warriors, and sorcerers of old'. - Thus your theory about them all being Kings is utterly flawed.
I am not sure where you are coming from mentioning the 'Witchking'. What insight does this bring?

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