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floyd_n_milan
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Post#1 » Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:18 am

Some doubts arise in my mind as I watch TTT and think about the books and the path ahead.

1. What was the point of taking Pippin to Minas Tirith? I didn't understand that one thing when I watched the movie and afterwords the book didn't make it clear either. I think I'll need to elaborate this question a bit, but I'll do that after I've got some answers. I need to see how this shapes up before I comment any more on it.

2. What was the expected path for Frodo to take to Mordor which would have been thought about at the Counsil of Elrond? Again, same thing about this question. I'll need some answers before I can say any more.

3. OK. This one is a rather "modern" question which may not be significant at all, but anyways I have it in my mind, so I'll ask it. I was thinking about the huge armies. Where do they get all the metal and stuff required for the armies from???

4. Can anyone tell me about the origin of the Orcs?

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terrijayne
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Post#2 » Wed Sep 15, 2004 7:13 am

Hello again, Floyd. As I still have The Silmarillon open here in front of me, I would like to answer your last question about orcs. In the third chapter of The Sil (Of The Coming Of The Elves) it talks about the beginning of orcs, and how they were created by Melkor.

But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes.


The end of this passage also states that this was the vilest deed of Melkor and the most hateful to Iluvatar. It also states that the orcs secretly hated their master as they lived in fear of him and attributed all their misery to him.

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floyd_n_milan
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Post#3 » Wed Sep 15, 2004 7:21 am

All you lucky people who have the Silmarillion...

Hmm, I remember Saruman saying something about mutation among Elves to breed the Orcs and that he had perfected them to Uruk-Hai in the TFOTR movie.

This leads to another question, though it could be real easy.

I suppose the Orcs were immortal too?

Oh yes, and another one, How did Saruman exactly breed the Uruks?

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Stonehelm
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Post#4 » Wed Sep 15, 2004 7:56 am

I don't know whether orcs were immortel or not. But I would guess that they aren't. I would think that they lost their immortality when they were corrupted by Melkor. I think that when creatures are corrupted by Melkor they lose their former identity and become new creatures with their own traits.

Just as a Troll will turn to stone in sunlight but an Ent will not.

As for breeding Uruks, that was just part of the movie, the book doesn't mention Saruman creating a new kind of ors. There are a few words in the books about half orcs and such, like Bill Ferney and Saruman's men who took over the shire, but Saruman did not create the Uruk-Hai.
I will never raise the white flag.

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floyd_n_milan
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Post#5 » Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:28 am

So, the Uruks weren't different from the Orcs then?

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valedhelgwath
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Post#6 » Wed Sep 15, 2004 12:58 pm

So, the Uruks weren't different from the Orcs then?


The Uruk hai were a strain of Orcs bred by Sauron and first seen in Middle Earth in TA 2475 when they sacked Osgiliath. Unlike normal orcs, they were tall, walked straight and were not weakened by sunlight. I think Sauron had just perfected the Orcs which Melkor had created by selective breeding, rather than cross breeding with Men.

Tolkien was also in a dilemna has to the origin of Orcs. Although in the Silmarillion it links their creation to captured Elves, Tolkien also wrote that the earliest Orcs were perhaps lesser Maiar spirits in flesh form. As to being immortal, nothing is really mentioned either way, but it is thought that part of the corruption would have included the loss of immortality.

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floyd_n_milan
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Post#7 » Wed Sep 15, 2004 1:24 pm

Another question!!!

Why would an Elvish rope hurt Gollum?

I must thank Gildor for this one. His needle hurt him and gave me the question!!!

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floyd_n_milan
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Post#8 » Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:33 pm

The Uruk hai were a strain of Orcs bred by Sauron and first seen in Middle Earth in TA 2475 when they sacked Osgiliath


I don't know about the dates. But, if sacking of Osgilliath is during the battle of the Pelennor fields, then read on, otherwise forget it.

So, what about the Uruks who carried Merry and Pippin? Ugluk i suppose? I think the chapter "Uruk Hai" in TFOTR

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grondmaster
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Post#9 » Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:34 pm

The Battle of Pelennor Fields occurred on the 'Ides of March' 3019 TA, some 544 years after the sack of Osgilliath.

I wonder if the Witchking even received that warning of Caesar's? Probably did, but just chose to ignore it, thinking himself immortal. :elfbiggrin:
1. What was the point of taking Pippin to Minas Tirith?
Sauron was sending a Ringwraith to Isenguard to retrieve Pippin from the clutches of Saruman, thus Gandalf wanted to get Pippin away from the area. For if Pippin was captured he would spill the beans about Frodo's mission. The safest place in Middle-earth for Pippin to be hidden was Minas Tirith.
2. What was the expected path for Frodo to take to Mordor which would have been thought about at the Counsil of Elrond?
I think they considered the project so hopeless, that Elrond just wanted the Ring out of Rivendell and Gandalf was going to have to play it by ear once he had conferred with Celeborn and Galadriel.
3. Where do they get all the metal and stuff required for the armies from???
From all the little people in the country's savings and plowshares. The rulers would also go into debt to finance their wars, thus requiring higher taxes; and sometimes they would even trump-up charges against their creditors to keep from having to pay off their war debts.
'Share and enjoy'

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bugyfeanor
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Post#10 » Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:12 pm

Why would an Elvish rope hurt Gollum?


I would say that's because Gollum possessed (or, rather, "was" possessed by) the Ring for 500 years, so he might've grown to a certain distaste of Elvish things. He was regressing very much (remember the cooked food episode, both in the book and the movie).
Anyway, I'm sure someone will find a better answer to your question...
Evil may yet be good to have been ... and yet remain evil. (Silmarillion)

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