On hobbits going to Aman

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Túrin Turambar
Posts: 614

On hobbits going to Aman

Post#1 » Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:16 am

At the end of ROTK we all know Bilbo and Frodo join Gandalf, and some elves to the undying lands. I'm curious to actually find out how they gained access to the blessed realm. I was told Arwen's gift to Frodo was to take her place in the voyage, but how does Biblo fit in, if this is the case?

Earendil was the only person of an alien race allowed to step foot in Aman. Were Frodo and Bilbo granted a similar fate such as Earendil's? Manwe and the council passed their judgement on the 2 and gave them the grace to pass?

Also i heard that Sam gets to tag along with the other 2 hobbits, any confimation on this?

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Amarië
Posts: 2785

On hobbits going to Aman

Post#2 » Sun Nov 28, 2004 5:07 am

Frodo and Bilbo (and later Sam according to the appendixes) were allowed to enter Aman becuase they had carried the One Ring, not because Arwen had given up her seat.
"Don't complain under the stars
about the lack of bright spots in you life."
Henrik Wergeland, Norwegian writer

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rhapsody
Posts: 599

On hobbits going to Aman

Post#3 » Sun Nov 28, 2004 5:11 am

Yes Sam went in the end, Merry and Pippin lived out their lives on Middle Earth (how that happened is kinda sweet, they had a strong friendship with King Eomer). Bear in mind, the ring bearers never got as far as Tol Eressa and never actually made it fully to Aman.

Earendil was the only person of an alien race allowed to step foot in Aman.


He still is the only one.

Were Frodo and Bilbo granted a similar fate such as Earendil's? Manwe and the council passed their judgement on the 2 and gave them the grace to pass?


No, Tol Eressa. That is the furthest they were allowed to go.

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Vee
Posts: 2711

On hobbits going to Aman

Post#4 » Sun Nov 28, 2004 5:27 am

Tolkien has something to say about this in his Letters....

...there always seem to be exceptions): and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel.

I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward; a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' - of free will, and leave the world.


and

Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him - if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time....

... Bilbo went too. No doubt as a completion of the plan due to Gandalf himself. Gandalf had a very great affection for Bilbo, from the hobbit's childhood onwards. His companionship was really necessary for Frodo's sake - it is difficult to imagine a hobbit, even one who had been through Frodo's experiences, being really happy even in an earthly paradise without a companion of his own kind, and Bilbo was the person that Frodo most loved.... But he also needed and deserved the favour on his own account. He bore still the mark of the Ring that needed to be finally erased...

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Amarië
Posts: 2785

On hobbits going to Aman

Post#5 » Sun Nov 28, 2004 6:33 am

Hmm... I admit I haven't read about it in a while, but where does it say they only get to go to Tol Eressëa?
...there always seem to be exceptions): and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome.
Elvenhome is the part of Aman where the elves lives. Earendil may have been the first, but he was followed by three hobbits and a dwarf. :)
"Don't complain under the stars

about the lack of bright spots in you life."

Henrik Wergeland, Norwegian writer

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Vee
Posts: 2711

On hobbits going to Aman

Post#6 » Sun Nov 28, 2004 6:53 am

From Akallabeth, The Silmarillion....

And tales and rumours arose along the shores of the sea concerning mariners and men forlorn upon the water who, by some fate or grace or favour of the Valar, had entered in upon the Straight Way and seen the face of the world sink below them, and so had come to the lamplit quays of Avallone, or verily to the last beaches on the margin of Aman, and there had looked upon the White Mountain, dreadful and beautiful, before they died.


Does this mean that any who got that far died almost as soon as reaching there or did they live out their lives amongst elves? Was it merely a myth told by those living on the shores of the sea or did other mortals travel the Straight Road before Frodo and company?

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rhapsody
Posts: 599

On hobbits going to Aman

Post#7 » Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:18 am

The Valar would never allow mortals into Valinor without a proper reason. Eärendil was a good reason. Pizza delivery, also.


Thanks Virumor! Your explanation is yet again thorough and excellent. And the pizza remark just did it. LOL :D

Just wondering, Celkeborn is a Sindar elf and did not enter the main lands of Valinor. Do you really think Galadriel would want to live separated by him? Will Galadriel waits for Celeborn at Tol Eresseä (which would solve the Gimli conundrum as well ;) )

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virumor
Posts: 3567

On hobbits going to Aman

Post#8 » Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:29 am

I am pretty sure Galadriel would stick to her man. Or stick to her men, if we include Gimli. Size doesn't matter for Elfies.
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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virumor
Posts: 3567

On hobbits going to Aman

Post#9 » Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:43 am

Elvenhome is the part of Aman where the elves lives. Earendil may have been the first, but he was followed by three hobbits and a dwarf.

Tol Eresseä is the part of Elvenhome/Eldamar, where Elves live who still feel strongly attached to Middle-Earth. But as the Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri live on the continent, i believe that Tol Eresseä is mostly inhabited by Sindar and descendants of Sindar. So for instance Legolamb wouldn't go further than Tol Eresseä (a reason for Gimli to stop at Tol Eresseä as well...).

As far as i know, it is mentioned nowhere that the hobbitses and dwarf were restricted to Tol Eresseä. Hey, if it were that way Gimli would never see Galadriel again as Galadriel would most likely go living in Tirion again with the rest of her family. But it is also possible that Galadriel would keep on living on Tol Eresseä, as Celeborn would also go living on Eresseä amidst his kinsfolk later on.

But still, i can't really imagine the hobbitses wandering around in Tirion, Valmar and the Circle of Doom myself, in the midst of those shiny Elfies. It is perhaps more logical for the hobbitses to stop at Tol Eresseä as well.

Does this mean that any who got that far died almost as soon as reaching there or did they live out their lives amongst elves? Was it merely a myth told by those living on the shores of the sea or did other mortals travel the Straight Road before Frodo and company?
To me it are tales, probably originated by those two lads who were sent back by Eärendil. Every time a sailor's ship sunk and the sailor never returned to his happy family, it was said that "he made it to Valinor" instead of "the old fool drowned". Sounds more romantic.

The Valar would never allow mortals into Valinor without a proper reason. Eärendil was a good reason. Pizza delivery, also.
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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Amarië
Posts: 2785

On hobbits going to Aman

Post#10 » Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:58 am

I am quite sure the elves went to visit each other no matter if they lived on the island or the mainland. Unless they turn into everlasting couch potatoes. And I am sure the hobbits wanted to look around once the got there, and I am sure there were many elves all across Elvenhome who wanted to see the little ones who brought down the most evil maia there ever was.
"Don't complain under the stars

about the lack of bright spots in you life."

Henrik Wergeland, Norwegian writer

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