Númenorean Blood 3rd Age

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virumor
Posts: 3567

Númenorean Blood 3rd Age

Post#1 » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:21 pm

Denethor is a full blooded Númenoran, as a direct descendant of Mardil, the first Steward, and hence Faramir & Boromir are too. Or at least Gandalf mentioned to Pippin that Denethor had full Númenoran blood. Indeed, it is to expect that Gondor's nobility with not mingle with Men of the Twilight, although Thengel of Rohan did marry a Lady of Lossarnach before he became King.

The House of Dol Amroth started with Imrâzor the Númenoran and the Elf Mithrellas, a companion of Nimrodel, if we are to believe the legend.

The Mouth of Sauron is full blooded Númenoran, though he was a Black Númenoran.
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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Túrin Turambar
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Númenorean Blood 3rd Age

Post#2 » Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:22 am

Virumor
Or at least Gandalf mentioned to Pippin that Denethor had full Númenoran blood.

I agree and believe what you said is completely true, but I just found it odd when it states in ROTK;
P.21
He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir whom he loved best.

You are probably right Virumor, like always. ;) I'm just sounds like Boromir was almost skipped and was the 'black sheep' of the family. Gandalf also makes it sound like Denethor wasn't of pure blood unlike the Dunedain and Prince Imrahil (plus many of his Knights) from Dol Anroth.

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virumor
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Númenorean Blood 3rd Age

Post#3 » Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:39 am

Maybe Boromir was conceived by a lonely Guard of the High Court, as Denethor had always been too busy with political affairs than tending to his wife.

How ironic, then, that he loved Boromir the most.
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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Vee
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Númenorean Blood 3rd Age

Post#4 » Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:51 am

My interpretation is that although both Boromir and Faramir were true descendants of Numenor blood only Faramir had the true 'spirit' of Numenor. He was able to resist the Ring whereas poor old Bory wasn't. I somehow doubt Denethor would have been able to resist it either. And yet Faramir (if I remember correctly) was more like Denethor than Boromir was.

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virumor
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Númenorean Blood 3rd Age

Post#5 » Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:54 pm

Both Boromir & Denethor saw the One Ring as their last and only hope to defeat Sauron & his armies. Both would try to bend it to their will, and be destroyed in the process.

From his own words, Faramir wouldn't use the One Ring even if it would mean that the White City would go down... all nicely said, but I doubt whether Faramir would not have fallen as Boromir had he gone to Rivendell and become a member of the Fellowship of the Ring. Poor old Bory had been subjected to the One Ring for a much longer time than lil Faramir, after all.

I think Faramir would've fallen too, although it would've taken longer than his brother, as everyone would, given time.
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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Vee
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Númenorean Blood 3rd Age

Post#6 » Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:05 pm

You may well be right but for the time period concerned Faramir did resist the Ring and I like to think there is the possibility that he would continue to do so even if put under the same stresses as Bory and Deny. I like to think that is why Faramir had the 'air of Westernesse'. Luckily, it wasn't put to the test.

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Túrin Turambar
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Númenorean Blood 3rd Age

Post#7 » Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:32 pm

maybe so, but I also agree to the fact that basically everyone in M-E would succumb to using the ring, given enough time, with the exception of Tom Bombadil.

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grondmaster
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Númenorean Blood 3rd Age

Post#8 » Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:44 pm

Sorry Vee: If Gandalf would have eventually succumbed to the Ring, then also in the end would have Faramir. Period! No ifs, and, or buts. :elfbiggrin: But we shouldn't think any the worse of Faramir for this; he was a gallant honorable prince of the land, who did well by his Numenorian blood.
'Share and enjoy'

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Túrin Turambar
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Númenorean Blood 3rd Age

Post#9 » Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:18 am

I'm currently re-reading ROTK, probably my 6th time or so, it's not as much of a surprise ending anymore. :p 'The Siege of Gondor' chapter it mentions the following
P.106
...and with him went the Prince of Dol Amroth in his shining mail. For he and his knights still held themselves like lords in whom the race of Númenor ran true.

I always had the impression the the Dunedain from the North (can't recall exactly how many there were of them) were the only peoples in M-E where the Númenorean blood still ran true. Yet Faramir and Denethor's blood almost run true to Númenor, yet Boromir's not so much.

Tolkien early on in the LOTR hints that there are only a handful of 'pure bred' (for lack of better term) Númenoreans, but then during ROTK he gives me the impression there could be almost a thousand(s) people in M-E whom's blood does/almost runs true.

Even though Gondor was created by the Númenoreans over time they mingled with lesser folk, however, I believe it's safe to say there are still handful of citizens of Gondor whom still have much of Númenor blood in them.

It sounds like most of Dol Amroth's occupants are full blooded Númenorean. At least the knights from there are:
P.37
...Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth, kinsman of the Lord, with gilded banners bearing his token of the Ship and the Silver Swan, and a company of knights in full harness riding grey horses, and behind them seven hundreds of men at arms, tall as lords, grey-eyed, dark-haired, singing as they came.

My question being is how many people in M-E would have full Númenorean blood?

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Túrin Turambar
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Númenorean Blood 3rd Age

Post#10 » Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:27 am

ROTK P.106
...and with him went the Prince of Dol Amroth in his shining mail. For he and his knights still held themselves like lords in whom the race of Númenor ran true.

When I read that quote I question the part that says, "...like lords in whom the race of Númenor ran true."

Does that refer to the lords whoms blood ran true? The Prince and Knights from Dol Amroth just appeared like the old Númenor lords of old.

Maybe I'm just confusing myself and, as I thought originally, that quote refers to Imrahil and his Knights being almost true to the Númenor blood line.

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