Plot hole in LOTR?

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Fimbrethil
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Plot hole in LOTR?

Post#1 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:48 am

I'm sure we've all seen how the lord of the rings should have ended
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqVD0swvWU

What do you guys think? Is it a major plot hole that Tolkien forgot about or was flying on eagles to Mordor simply not an option.

I can present some arguments for and against


Is a plothole

-The eagles were used in the hobbit, rescued Gandalf on top of Orthanc and rescued Sam and Frodo from Mordor. If they were already used like that then why the discrepency?
-the book doesn't even mention the possiblity which suggest Tolkien forgot about this option..?

Flying on eagles wasn't an option

-The eagles wouldn't allow to be used as such somehow or they would under the influence of the ring easily
-Eagles flying over Mordor would be too conspicuous and orc archers would easily shoot them down or they would be attacked by Nazgul on the fell beasts. Walking would allow for a lower chance of being detected
-maybe Sauron could throw fireballs at them..? lol
-maybe the eagles were too busy with wars in the north?


I'm not in anyway insulting LOTR! I'm just interested in what you guys think. I also haven't read the Similarion (I don't think I could finish it lol...) so I'm not really that knowledgeable about Middle Earths early history.

:)

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Eldorion
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Plot hole in LOTR?

Post#2 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:19 am

I've tried answering this question before, so here's my short essay/answer (copied and pasted because I'm lazy :D ):

Eldorion wrote:The purpose of the Fellowship of the Ring, and the linchpin of the entire strategy decided on in Rivendell, was to destroy the Ring in a mission of secrecy.

Taking the Eagles might have worked, I will grant that. It may have been a successful mission and allowed the Ring to be destroyed earlier than it "actually" was. But it would have sacrificed secrecy and drastically increased the changes of the Ring being captured. When you have the fate of the world hanging in the balance, you don't want to take any unnecessary chances.

Eagles are, clearly, far more noticeable than Hobbits or other travelers on foot. We don't know how exactly Gandalf planned to get into Mordor (presumably it didn't involve the breaking of the Fellowship), but we can surmise that they would have gone through a mountain pass or valley some where. We know of only three (the Morannon, Cirith Ungol, and the Nameless Pass), but it stands to reason that there were more. Not ideal ones perhaps (though Cirith Ungol itself was not ideal), but mountains are not impenetrable and continuous walls of rock.

An Eagle flying through the air would be easily noticed by Orcs or other watchers (remember the sinister and sorcerous ones at the Tower of Cirith Ungol). Travelers on foot could sneak around much more easily, scout ahead (especially with a ranger), and slip by unnoticed (remember how quiet hobbits are?). The Eagles might have been able to slip by unnoticed, but it would have been far more likely that they would have been caught. Once inside Mordor (if they even make it), there is still the chance that the Eagles could be caught. There's also the threat of the Nazgul's fell beasts, and archers.

The "classic" Eagle plan, as outlined in the YouTube video, would not work for a couple of reasons. First, the Ring could not just be dropped into the caldera; it had to be taken into the Crack of Doom itself. As the name implies, this is an enclosed space inside the mountain. An Eagles likely would not fit inside, so it would have to bring have a rider. This would limit the height to which it could fly (the rider would need to breathe) and its agility during a fight. Yet more possibilities for failure. Second, a giant Eagle landing on the slope of Mount Doom would be quickly evident to any troops stationed there. A small group of people on foot might be able to sneak up unnoticed. Again, the Eagle plan might work, but it increases the chances of being caught.

The Council of Elrond did not know exactly what to expect in Mordor, so they had to plan for the worst (i.e., assume the worst case scenario for each possible solution). The Fellowship plan was itself a very long shot and indeed, it failed in its original conception, though obviously a fragment of the Fellowship persisted; but the Eagle plan raises such a host of potential issues and problems that I think it is quite understandable why the Council opted to send people on foot. As I mentioned at the beginning, their emphasis was on secrecy.

(This of course assumes that the Eagles, were they asked, would consent to fly the Ringbearer/Fellowship to Mount Doom.)

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Fimbrethil
Posts: 55

Plot hole in LOTR?

Post#3 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:05 pm

Thanks for your opinion!

I never thought about the fact that they couldn't just drop the ring in the caldera. Thanks for clearing that up. It seems to me that they could have saved alot of time by flying on Eagles most of the way though. Maybe i would have liked it if the council had at least brought up the issue and furthur emphasized the secrecy.

Oh well. Overall i don't really think its a plothole and there are many arguments against it

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Eldorion
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Plot hole in LOTR?

Post#4 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:24 pm

You're very welcome. :)

Sauron - and Saruman - had many spies that would have ntoiced the Eagles. Given the incredibly sensitive naturenof the Quest, I can understand why they didn't want to risk it. In any event, I agree that it isn't a plot hole. :P

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Fimbrethil
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Plot hole in LOTR?

Post#5 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:25 pm

Indeed..but did Sarumans spies miss Gwaihir the eagle that rescued Gandalf?

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Eldorion
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Plot hole in LOTR?

Post#6 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:50 pm

Perhaps. However, they weren't on the lookout for him (much less him and the One Ring) at the time. I'm not sure why they wouldn't have let him come through even if they saw him, though. They didn't know he was going to rescue Gandalf (Gwaihir didn't know that himself!).

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Odo Banks
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Plot hole in LOTR?

Post#7 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:35 pm

Maybe they should have invited the eagles to the Council of Elrond. Who knows what might have happened then? (Imagine the adventures they could have had if the Nine of the Fellowship were to set out on Eagles. Dogfights with Nazgul? Anti-eagle flak-guns over Mordor? Dam Buster technique training as Frodo earned his wings? Imagine Gwaihir (I hope I spelt that right!) perched majestically at the Council! Awesome!

Eldo, Mount Doom had a hole in the top. It just had a passage bored in its side. If it had a roof, surely T would have mentioned it. Please correct me if I'm wrong! (I'm sure you will! :lol: )

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Eldorion
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Plot hole in LOTR?

Post#8 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:11 pm

[quote="Odo Banks":dbtl6mob]Imagine the adventures they could have had if the Nine of the Fellowship were to set out on Eagles. Dogfights with Nazgul? Anti-eagle flak-guns over Mordor? Dam Buster technique training as Frodo earned his wings?[/quote:dbtl6mob]

Even I have to admit that that story would be incredibly awesome. 8-)

[quote:dbtl6mob]Eldo, Mount Doom had a hole in the top. It just had a passage bored in its side. If it had a roof, surely T would have mentioned it. Please correct me if I'm wrong! (I'm sure you will! :lol: )[/quote:dbtl6mob]

You know me too well. :mrgreen: Tolkien actually did mention it, at least by implication. In Book VI, Chapter 3 (Mount Doom), we read that Sam "was come to the heart of the realm of Sauron and the forges of his ancient might, greatest in Middle-earth; all other powers were hear subdued.... Then Sam saw that he was in a long cave or tunnel that bored into the Mountain's smoking cone." The Crack of Doom itself was at the end of the tunnel where it opened up over a pool of lava. It was in the tunnel itself, home of Sauron's sorcery, that the Ring needed to be brought.

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Eldorion
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Plot hole in LOTR?

Post#9 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:21 pm

BTW, Fimbrethil, your question inspired me to review some notes and upload a slightly cleaned-up version of my post to my Tolkien site - http://eldorion.wordpress.com/lore/eagles/. Thank you for giving me a reason to do something with it. :geek: :mrgreen:

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Odo Banks
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Plot hole in LOTR?

Post#10 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:05 pm

What implication are you implying? I'm gonna win this one, I just know it! Not that just winning an argument is important. No, finding out the facts is the true purpose of any discussion or debate. We should all seek to be winners in matters of the intellect - of learning - of history - of human knowledge - of Lore... Discussion should never be there so some egomaniac can just set out to win an argument ...LIKE HELL IT SHOULDN'T ! :x :x :x

Come on Eldo, let's see you put your dukes up now! :evil:

Um... "smoking cone"? "Crack of Doom"? No 'lids' mentioned, pray tell! No 'oven covers', no 'silcone in the cracks'?

"Youiz wrong, Preciousss! I knows you iz! I saw it with eyeses, but I've only got the two, isn't it so Preciousssssss...Mustn't gloat... That wouldn't be nice, now would it? Oh no, no....that wouln't be nice... Mussent glowat, Preciousssssssss!"

Loremaster! Oh well. so much for your mantle! Oh how it has fallen! :ugeek:

Sorry - it's the Sauron inside of me that makes me do it, Eldo - I don't blame myself! :twisted:

Odo the Great! Odo the Loremaster! Odo the Humble Genius! Nice! 8-) ....

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