sex and orcs

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pettytyrant101
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sex and orcs

Post#1 » Sun Apr 11, 2010 7:48 am

Got your attention now! No really this thread is about sex, or more specifically interbreeding. It was inspired by a conversation I was having with a friend over the remark in Fellowship that Bill Ferny's "squint-eyed Southerner" friend looked like a half-orc. My friend was arguing he had always read this is not being a literal half-orc, but that it was merely a slur against an ugly man, a racist slur indeed in modern terms, Whilst I was arguing that the human approach to something new tends to centre around only three questions; "Can I eat it? Can I make use f it? And can I shag it?" so that it was not beyond the realms of possibility that humans and orcs had bred.
So what do you think? Half-orc-humans real or just a slur on people who look a bit rough?

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Eldorion
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sex and orcs

Post#2 » Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:23 am

pettytyrant101 wrote:So what do you think? Half-orc-humans real or just a slur on people who look a bit rough?


I would say they're both "real" (within the story) and a slur. We know from The Silmarillion that orcs reproduce sexually, and Treebeard speculates that Saruman may have interbred humans and orcs (I don't recall his exact words, but interbreeding is really the only way that would have been possible given the natures of both). In the (dubiously canon) "Myths Transformed" essays published in Morgoth's Ring Tolkien states that Morgoth had also interbred humans and orcs.

Additionally, while the exact origins of Orcs are unclear, it is likely that they were corrupted elves and/or humans. Given that many of the races in LotR were a single species, this would imply that they could interbreed. It is also possible that Orcs were in origin corrupted Maiar, but as we know from Melian, some Maiar can interbreed with the Children of Iluvatar.

So, while none of the Hobbits could have known if the "squint-eyed Southerner" actually was a half-orc, I think it is fairly clear that some existed.

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Gandalfs Beard
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sex and orcs

Post#3 » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:22 am

I couldn't have said it better myself Eldo :ugeek: .

GB

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pettytyrant101
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sex and orcs

Post#4 » Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:51 am

I agree Eldo, that was largely the tack I took in the debate with my friend, but I felt his point was an interesting one (and its been a slowish weekend on here so thought it might get some activity going). However if we accept Tolkiens conceit that its all history, and that something of the elvish survives in humanity through the few intermarriages between those races, then it follows that something of the orcish has been passed onto us too (explaining a lot about the poorer side to human nature). Especially as in the Scouring of the Shire it is implied that a fair few of these types of "squint eyed southerners" are present, one assumes breeding between orc and human was in fact more common than between any of the other races. Or to put it another way- there's more orc than elf in us today!

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Gandalfs Beard
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sex and orcs

Post#5 » Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:31 pm

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if Orcs were the sort to rape as well as pillage :x . So no doubt there were some progeny who passed on their traits into the general gene pool.

I have to wonder though, if those "squint eyed Southerners" weren't a slight against "inbred hillbillies" ;) .

GB

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pettytyrant101
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sex and orcs

Post#6 » Sun Apr 11, 2010 2:32 pm

:D GB- the Dunlendings were kinda hillbillies and good chance Saruman used them in his breeding programs so you might just be right!

Joseph Dwarf
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sex and orcs

Post#7 » Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:54 pm

Maybe half-orcs are just orcs who saw the errors of their ways and now psychologically they're reformed. Their mental half isn't orc but they're physical half is still as orc-ugly as it was when they were pillaging murderers. Don't judge a book by it's cover as the old saying goes ;) . Although that doesn't explain Bill Ferny, Maybe he's just a really ugly, nasty human. :)

[b:1ww35mtb]J Dwarf[/b:1ww35mtb]

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Eldorion
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sex and orcs

Post#8 » Sun Apr 11, 2010 5:30 pm

pettytyrant101 wrote:However if we accept Tolkiens conceit that its all history, and that something of the elvish survives in humanity through the few intermarriages between those races, then it follows that something of the orcish has been passed onto us too (explaining a lot about the poorer side to human nature).


I would expect that under the conceit this is the case, though of course it would be diluted over thousands of years. I'm not sure how much of human nature I'd blame on Orcs; humans are - in both the real world and in Tolkien's - quite capable of being 'evil' on their own.

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Gandalfs Beard
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sex and orcs

Post#9 » Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:41 am

And judging by the Silmarillion, plenty of Elves could behave quite Orcish on occasion too :? , which is an issue that perplexed me for years.

GB

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Odo Banks
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sex and orcs

Post#10 » Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:44 am

Some girls find very ugly men appealing - so white not orcs? Actually, some girls marry some very ugly men (inside) with the intention of changing them! Who, seriously, has ever heard of a reformed orc? Some girls are silly.

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