Luthien, Idril & Arwen

Rosie
Posts: 233

Luthien, Idril & Arwen

Post#1 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Tolkien was a racist? hm.. i didn't know that.
My english teacher's from south africa..
he always goes on about how he escaped through the underground to escape the oppressive regime, racism, etc.
ok, this is totally off the topic. so will get back to the topic. whatever it ws. right. Arwen, Aragorn. nice names, hope those kids settle down and live happily ever after. :D[Edited on 17/1/2002 by Rosie]

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grondmaster
Posts: 25451

Luthien, Idril & Arwen

Post#2 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

I'm not saying he was a racist, just that it was in his background, way back, and might have had some minor influence, if my first speculation on 4) was correct. Besides that 'specist' might be a more suitable word in this day of political correctness.
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PlasticSquirrel
Posts: 3577

Luthien, Idril & Arwen

Post#3 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

It's not the first time that the accusation of Racism has been levelled at JRR. All the black numenoreans, and black lords, and dark men from the east who are all evil and ride Elephants (in case you hadn't worked out the connections already) have been the subject of hot debate for many years.
Though he didn't spend long enough in South Africa for it to have a huge effect on him, I don't think. Otherwise he'd have been a right b*stard I'd imagine. I think the black was all metaphorical, and not intended as a racist slur. Plus you have to remember the times it was written in, when this way of thinking was common place, especially in middle England. And right after SA as well.......
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Boring
Posts: 289

Luthien, Idril & Arwen

Post#4 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

3) Elros chose to be the first king of the numenor and elrond chose to be Firstborn

all the offspring of Earendill got the gift to choose their doom?[Edited on 24/1/2002 by Boring]

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Allyssa
Posts: 1657

Luthien, Idril & Arwen

Post#5 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

I always though Tolkien was a little inconsistent here.

Okay, we start with Elrond and Elros (twin brothers right?). They are given the right to choose their race and do so accordingly....My question is how come none of Elros' children have to make any choices but Elrond's children do?

Sure, maybe Arwen made the unusual choice that was available to all elves if they wished, but why does Elrond then talk about a doom? Does it have something to do with the fact that although Elrond has chosen to be an elf, he has not left for the Undying Lands?

Still don't see why his children have to make a choice if they are not planning to marry a human. They should have the same options as normal elves shouldn't they?
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Boring
Posts: 289

Luthien, Idril & Arwen

Post#6 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Well Elros always felt closer to the human race and so he raised his children as humans and their childern hwere also raised as human etc and maybe they loved being human and did not ant to be of elvenrace, adn if te generations afterwards are content being human maybe it was forgotten out of knowledge that they had a choice..

As for Elrond he had to choose and his children are second in line on the generation map so probably they didn't forget they could choose (also Elrond was a history frantic and record like almost everything ever happened)

the doom of humans is to have a short lifespan and die very easely (sickness etc) and when humans die they will leave Middle Earth unlike the elves whom go to the halls of mandos awaiting their reincarnation. And after she had chosen she couldn't change back to elfs and she would never see her kin again.

Their ability of chosing was a gift to Earendill whom in the name of elf and men asked for the aid of the Vala to destroy the evil dark lord Morgoth

at least these are my thoughts about it, I would like to read somebody elses thoughts on it[Edited on 25/1/2002 by Boring]

Ungoliant
Posts: 993

Luthien, Idril & Arwen

Post#7 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

I agree with Boring's point of view - after all, the Silm mentioned that Earendil left the chioce to his wife, and she chose to be numbered amongst the Elves even though he preferred the race of his father. Maybe Elros was more like his father & Elrond leaned more towards his mother?

What I still don't get is Arwen would have to make the choice to be 'human' in order to marry Aragorn. After all, she can just marry him and then go West after he died. Seems that she had 2 choices - go into the West *or* marry Aragorn & become human. Why? After all, she didn't have to leave for the west immediately - Celeborn & some other Elves (Legolas comes into mind here) left ME long after that, if I'm not mistaken, and the 'last ship' wasn't the one that took Gandalf, Bilbo, Frodo & Galadriel into the West, was it?

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PlasticSquirrel
Posts: 3577

Luthien, Idril & Arwen

Post#8 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

It's all explained somewhere, can't for the life of me remember where, but I think it's in the appendices again, or maybe the silm, ah crap I can't remember.
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Ungoliant
Posts: 993

Luthien, Idril & Arwen

Post#9 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Hmm. It's not in Silm, so it must be in the appendices then. Boo. I don't have the book. :(

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PlasticSquirrel
Posts: 3577

Luthien, Idril & Arwen

Post#10 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Really!?! No Rotk with appendices? Blimey!!!! :o
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