If Melkor could not create?

Tauron
Posts: 21

If Melkor could not create?

Post#1 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Thanks for your explanation... Then maybe all those great "monsters" are maia spirits.

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valedhelgwath
Posts: 4233

If Melkor could not create?

Post#2 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

I think the likes of Draugluin, the father of werewolves, Thuringwethil the vampire, and Huan the hound were all Maiar, as were perhaps the ancestors of Beorn. Others, like the Fell beasts that were mounts for the Nazgul, were more likely to be corruptions of something like the Great Eagles.

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Aulë
Posts: 1232

If Melkor could not create?

Post#3 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Val I liked your explanation.....
Life's a piece of sheit, when you look at it
Life's a laugh and death's a joke, it's true
You'll see its all a show, people laughin as you go
Just remember that the last laugh is on you

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grondmaster
Posts: 25451

If Melkor could not create?

Post#4 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

I like his explanations too, and he writes so meaningful and effortless, it seems to me. When I try to put an explanation on paper (or the screen) I always stumble over my words never quite getting to where I wanted to go. Val on the other hand almost always hits the mark. :thumbup:
'Share and enjoy'

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Aulë
Posts: 1232

If Melkor could not create?

Post#5 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Yup!
Val is my new idol ;)
Life's a piece of sheit, when you look at it

Life's a laugh and death's a joke, it's true

You'll see its all a show, people laughin as you go

Just remember that the last laugh is on you

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valedhelgwath
Posts: 4233

If Melkor could not create?

Post#6 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Careful guys, you'll give me a swell-head :boom:

That was only my interpretation of things too, not necessarily the correct answer. I'd love to know for certain what their true heritage was.

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Aulë
Posts: 1232

If Melkor could not create?

Post#7 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Yeah but I thought it was very highly likely to be so....
Hail to Valedhelgwath:D:D:D
Life's a piece of sheit, when you look at it

Life's a laugh and death's a joke, it's true

You'll see its all a show, people laughin as you go

Just remember that the last laugh is on you

Findekano
Posts: 73

If Melkor could not create?

Post#8 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Beorn was a man, BTW. He was a descendant of the Marachian tribes who didn't pass into Eriador or Beleriand and became the Hadorians. The Beornings, the Woodmen and the Rohhirim were also of Marachain descent but the Rohhirm also may have had some Numenorean and Dunlendish blood in them.

I think Tolkien says in his letters that Beorn's powers were due to a good magic, of sorts On Maia mating with incarnates, I think Melian may hae been an exception but in Myths Transformed (HoME 10) Tolkien, says that (early) Orcs were of Beastial and Maiacal form, and later they inter-bred with men, (Tolkein rejected the idea that they were oe Elvish origins, or at least they were only partly Elvish and the idea that Orcs were corrupted Elves was a Eressian loremaster theory anyway.

Tauron
Posts: 21

If Melkor could not create?

Post#9 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Maybe I have found something while I was looking into the books:
Dragons simply existed, as is, and were neither bred nor created by Melkor. They simply existed as part of Arda, caused perhaps by the discord Melkor himself introduced into the Ainulindule, and then taken by Melkor as servants; and being (perhaps) an offspring of his prideful desire to create beings of his own--for the very purpose of mastering and bending to his will--they were easily swayed to his side and made willing slaves. This does not require true 'creation' on the part of Melkor, simply the introduction of a discordant theme that is later made into reality, or the 'World that Is', when Eru made the song of the Ainur into Ea.

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valedhelgwath
Posts: 4233

If Melkor could not create?

Post#10 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

This does not require true 'creation' on the part of Melkor, simply the introduction of a discordant theme that is later made into reality, or the 'World that Is', when Eru made the song of the Ainur into Ea.
But surely, like I suggested, this is the same as the creation of the Ents and the Giant Eagles...

From Aule and Yavanna - The Silmarillion
O Kementari, Eru hath spoken saying: "Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the Song, even the least sound of the least voice? Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the Kelvar and the Olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared. For a time: while the Firstborn are in their power, and while the Secondborn are young." But dost thou not now remember, Kelmentari, that thy thought sang not always alone? Did not thy thought and mine meet also, so that we took wing together like great birds that soar above the clouds? That also shall come to be by the heed of Iluvatar, and before the Children awake there shall go forth with wings like the wind the Eagles of the Lords of the West."
The way I interpret things, is that the Ainur sang the great music, and then Eru made Ea a reality from that music. The Valar had many followers among the Maiar, both lesser and greater, as did Melkor.

Using their themes sang in the music, Yavanna and Manwe were able to bring about the creation of the Ents and Giant Eagles, but these were not their own creations as it took "spirits summoned from afar" to actually give them life. I assume, that as at this time only Ainur were in existance, these spirits must in fact be lesser Maiar.

In a similar manner Melkor created dragons during his discord within the Great Music. These would come into being when Eru made Ea a reality, but it would similarly take "spirits summoned from afar" to give them life. If these spirits were from Melkor's Maian following, it would also explain why the dragons served him loyally.

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