Something non-understandable???

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Aulë
Posts: 1232

Something non-understandable???

Post#1 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

I still don´t get it
Life's a piece of sheit, when you look at it
Life's a laugh and death's a joke, it's true
You'll see its all a show, people laughin as you go
Just remember that the last laugh is on you

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rednell
Posts: 1798

Something non-understandable???

Post#2 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

In the spring of the year after Níniel conceived, and she became wan and sad; and at the same time there came to Ephel Brandir the first rumours that Glaurung had issued from Nargothrond.

When I read this I interpretted as meaning that Niniel was with child and wanning referring to the birth of the child. I don't recall any mention of Turin's heir so perhaps the infant died which would have been cause for Niniel's sadness. All this happening when Glaurung makes his appearance and reveals that Niniel is indeed, Nienor, Turin's sister. And we all know how well Turin took that bit of news. If Niniel did have a child by Turin, then this would make it even more difficult for Turin to cope with.
This is just a guess, mind you. I will do some more digging to see if I have anything here that will support my theory.
Hmmmmm, reminds me a bit of a legend with king who found himself in the same situation.
It is merely setting in time, when Glaurung issued from Nargothrond.

That, too, is a possibility. I believe it was the year following the marriage of Turin and Niniel that Glaurung revealed this lovely little secret.

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Amarië
Posts: 2785

Something non-understandable???

Post#3 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

When I read this I interpretted as meaning that Niniel was with child and wanning referring to the birth of the child. I don't recall any mention of Turin's heir so perhaps the infant died which would have been cause for Niniel's sadness.
Niniel/Nienor was pregnant with Turins child when Glaurung told them they where brother and sister, i think that was the main reason she trew herself of the cliff.

So I guess what it all means is:
1. It was springtime
2. Niniel was feeling ill during her pregnancy (mayby it was a sort of premonition as bugy says, maybe it was really bad morningsickness)
3. People said Glaurung had left Nargothrond.nn[Redigert den 4/10/2003 av Amarië]
"Don't complain under the stars
about the lack of bright spots in you life."
Henrik Wergeland, Norwegian writer

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Peredhil
Posts: 2167

Something non-understandable???

Post#4 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Grondy is right, I believe; it is just setting the time.
A mind full of fire and a fistful of steel.

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Allyssa
Posts: 1657

Something non-understandable???

Post#5 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Wasn't Nieniel still pregnant when she drowned? That was why the baby was never born.
"May the Angels Guide"

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Amarië
Posts: 2785

Something non-understandable???

Post#6 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Yes that's what I thought i said two posts ago, but Ally said it in a clearer way than I did. :)
It's such a sad story.. :sad:
"Don't complain under the stars

about the lack of bright spots in you life."

Henrik Wergeland, Norwegian writer

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grondmaster
Posts: 25451

Something non-understandable???

Post#7 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Yes, Nieniel was in a family way when she took her dive as Amarië and Allyssa have said. The wanness very well may have been caused by morning sickness, while the sadness was caused by Turin being unavailable to bring her ice cream and pickles or to share the wealth of her burden.

The above plus Tolkien's setting the time of the ocurrance is why I said JRRT or young Christopher tried to say too much in too few words. :elfbiggrin: nn[Edited on 5/10/2003 by Grondmaster]
'Share and enjoy'

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uruk_slayer
Posts: 158

Something non-understandable???

Post#8 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

I tend to agree with Rednell on this one: it seems as if Nieniel was stricken with something like depression. In my readings of classical literature and such, the Brits had a tendency to show characters exhibiting physical signs of a problem for something that is wrong spiritually. Turin didn't know he married his sister and conceived a child with her but her body knew and so had something happen to try to tell her. But Grondy's probably right, one of the Tolkiens meshed the two ideas together in a single sentence.

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valedhelgwath
Posts: 4233

Something non-understandable???

Post#9 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

it seems as if Nieniel was stricken with something like depression. In my readings of classical literature and such, the Brits had a tendency to show characters exhibiting physical signs of a problem for something that is wrong spiritually.
That was always the impression I had when reading that piece too. As a reader you know something is dreadfully wrong, so it is easy to overlook the fact that Nieniel is sad rather than looking forward to the birth of her child.

Don't forget, also, that prior to meeting Turin, Nieniel had forgotten her whole past. To lose your identity would take some getting over, and though someone might get over the initial shock fairly quickly, there would always be a questioning of who you are lingering behind. This latter doubt most likely would cause depression over the course of a year or so. If the same thing happened to me, I think I would feel guilty at finding love, knowing I could well be married to someone else somewhere.

As for the rest of the sentence... Like Grondy suggests, Tolkien was giving us the information of two sentences in one. I think you will find this quite a lot in the Silmarillion. Take for instance my all time favourite Silmarillion paragraph composed of four sentences....
The sons of Hador were Galdor and Gundor; and the sons of Galdor were Hurin and Huor; and the son of Hurin was Turin the Bane of Glaurung; and the son of Huor was Tuor, father of Earendil the Blessed. The son of Boromir was Bregor, whose sons were Bregolas and Barahir; and the sons of Bregolas were Baragund and Belegund. The daughter of Baragund was Morwen, the mother of Turin, and the daughter of Belegund was Rian, the mother of Tuor. But the son of Barahir was Beren One-hand, who won the love of Luthien Thingol's daughter, and returned from the dead; from them came Elwing the wife of Earendil, and all the Kings of Numenor after.
Genious or jumble???? In my opinion genius. In just four sentences he manages to mention:-

The names of 21 people and 21 different relationships between those people.
The fact that Turin was the Bane of Glaurung.
That Beren had only one hand, and that he managed to return from the dead.
That they were the descendants of a line of kings.

I challenge anyone else to manage so much in just four sentences.

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bugyfeanor
Posts: 668

Something non-understandable???

Post#10 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

That is genius for sure, Val! And I'm curious who would take such a task ...
Evil may yet be good to have been ... and yet remain evil. (Silmarillion)

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