Eru's thoughts (Ainur)

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Vee
Posts: 2711

Eru's thoughts (Ainur)

Post#1 » Sat Mar 27, 2004 3:30 am

He made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made...... for each comprehended only that part of the mind of Iluvatar from which he came...

(Chapter 1 of the Silmarillion)


Melkor was formed from the thoughts of Eru by the thoughts of Eru. Was the possibility of his evil already in Eru's thoughts? Was Melkor a 'wild-card'? Was he deliberate? What was Eru's reason for allowing it?

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asteroth
Posts: 137

Eru's thoughts (Ainur)

Post#2 » Sat Mar 27, 2004 7:27 am

Deep subject...Very deep... Needs time to completely discuss and unfortuantely i don't have that time now... All i can say for now is that noone, even Eru itself , is not pure good. Think about Yin-Yang. (I'll come back to this thread)

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Amarië
Posts: 2785

Eru's thoughts (Ainur)

Post#3 » Sat Mar 27, 2004 9:16 am

The Ainur came from Erus thoughts, but they came alive and got thoughts and ideas of their own. They were not a part of him anymore, they where given a free will and Melkor chose to turn away from Eru, the others chose to stay. Eru is not evil, but his "offspring" can choose to be. That is what I think anyway. ;)

Melkor had a "brother" didn't he? They came from the same thought or part of Eru?
"Don't complain under the stars
about the lack of bright spots in you life."
Henrik Wergeland, Norwegian writer

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Vee
Posts: 2711

Eru's thoughts (Ainur)

Post#4 » Sat Mar 27, 2004 9:28 am

All i can say for now is that noone, even Eru itself , is not pure good. Think about Yin-Yang. (I'll come back to this thread)


Why can't Eru be pure good? Why must there be evil? Not sure I know enough about Yin-Yang apart from it being the balance of the universe or something. Hurry up and come back.

I see what Amarie is saying but I still don't understand why, if Eru's thoughts were pure and good and that's were the Ainur came from, Melkor alone developed a very evil streak?

And surely, Eru knows everything until the end of time itself........ or does he? Was the creation of Arda an experiment?

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Tyrhael
Posts: 1187

Eru's thoughts (Ainur)

Post#5 » Sat Mar 27, 2004 10:04 am

My opinion is that Eru knew what he was doing, and deliberately created Melkor.

'And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'
-The Silmarillion

'And thou, Melko, shalt see that no theme may be played that has not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempts this shall but aid me in devising things yet more wonderful, which he himself has not imagined. Through Melko have terror as fire, and sorrow like dark waters, wrath like thunder, and evil as far from my light as the uttermost depths of the dark places come into the design. In the confusion of sound were made pain and cruelty, devouring flame and cold without mercy, and death without hope. Yet he shall see that in the end this redounds only to the glory of the world, and this world shall be called of all the deeds of Ilúvatar the mightiest and most lovely.'
-The Lost Road, similar passage


I think the idea is that through evil, good/beauty becomes more magnificent and more appreciated.

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Nilgaerien
Posts: 624

Eru's thoughts (Ainur)

Post#6 » Sat Mar 27, 2004 10:32 am

I agree with Arco. Good is that much more "good" when evil has tainted certain parts of it. Also, others may have had rebellious streaks (Aule[?] when he created dwarves) but only Melkor saw his through to such completion. My thoughts anyway. :D

loni
Posts: 1519

Eru's thoughts (Ainur)

Post#7 » Sat Mar 27, 2004 9:15 pm

I fully believe that Eru was totally good, and he made his Children have a choice, not just be robots, but he knew that Morgoth would turn evil.

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asteroth
Posts: 137

Eru's thoughts (Ainur)

Post#8 » Sun Mar 28, 2004 11:36 am

And surely, Eru knows everything until the end of time itself........ or does he? Was the creation of Arda an experiment?

IMHO ;
I'm against the idea that Eru was pure. How could Melkor in his evil form possibly be given life by Eru if it was pure? I think Eru contained evil as much as goodness. Manwe was the reflection of goodness and Melkor was his dark side.

Vee, I think the creation of Arda was an experiment. This may sound stupid to most of you, but i also think Eru was a sadistic creature. No, seriously, what kind of creature could possibly create a new world, unleash the terror of its own creation (Melkor), create lower beings (Elves,men etc.) let Melkor corrupt them and then watch them fight? Not a "pure and good God" for sure.

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vilyon
Posts: 55

Eru's thoughts (Ainur)

Post#9 » Sun Mar 28, 2004 11:45 am

[Philosophy]
Without evil there can be no good.
if there is only good the universe becomes unbalanced.
[/philosophy]
they say power corrupts, and Melkor was the most powerful of all the valar which is most likely the case here.
If they were all good then the elves would never have travelled to the Undying lands and the Numenorians wouldn't have got their island (they got it for good deeds in war) and there would be nothing exciting in LOTR or any related books so we wouldn't be here discussing it.

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asteroth
Posts: 137

Eru's thoughts (Ainur)

Post#10 » Sun Mar 28, 2004 11:57 am

they say power corrupts, and Melkor was the most powerful of all the valar which is most likely the case here.

Manwe and Melkor were equal in power, if Melkor was corrupted by his power, the same should have happened to Manwe as well. What do you think kept Manwe from corruption?

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