Eru's thoughts (Ainur)

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virumor
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Eru's thoughts (Ainur)

Post#151 » Sat Jan 15, 2005 7:05 pm

I know, so much has been discussed already I have seen Laurelindhe also asking quite a lot: what were Eru's thoughts, so I think we are far from done here.

I just think that if Melkor is a part from Eru, it somehow makes Eru more perfect. I just don't think someone can be fully good, not even Eru, without a slighest part of Evil inside theml. As Ghandi said: Evil is, good or truth misplaced. Somewhere, something went wrong with Melkor and his evil surfaced.

I am just wondering.. if Eru was that powerful, why did he let Melkor or Sauron for that matter play such a role? Did he had a role for Melkor when he weaved the musics? Did he had Melkor in mind as an evil influence to exceed the elves and men to their outer limits to fight it?

I think all of this has already been answered somewhere in the beginning of this thread.

We already gave so many quotes that the entire Ainulindalë is probably already included in this thread...

Because of their shorter life span Men also hold the key to success against Sauron - hope and striving against all odds, while elves prefer to keep things unchanged and hide away from the evil.

Hiding away from evil? Yeh, sure. That's why the Noldor returned to Beleriand at the beginning of the First Age and why the Elves at the end of the third age accepted the destruction of the One Ring which put an end to the Three.

Elves have always done what they had to do against evil.
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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rhapsody
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Eru's thoughts (Ainur)

Post#152 » Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:30 am

I think all of this has already been answered somewhere in the beginning of this thread.

We already gave so many quotes that the entire Ainulindalë is probably already included in this thread...


Well I am not interested in that. Just quoting from a book isn't that helpful for a discussion and once I see it is quoted I skip the text. I want to know a persons viewpoint, not that of Tolkien. And even so, I can interpretet the Sil differently then you, simply because my frame of reference is different then yours or someone elses. I still do have those questions that the Sil, UT, Letters does not cover. So my questions remain.

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Vee
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Eru's thoughts (Ainur)

Post#153 » Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:12 am



Quote:
Because of their shorter life span Men also hold the key to success against Sauron - hope and striving against all odds, while elves prefer to keep things unchanged and hide away from the evil.End Quote

Hiding away from evil? Yeh, sure. That's why the Noldor returned to Beleriand at the beginning of the First Age and why the Elves at the end of the third age accepted the destruction of the One Ring which put an end to the Three.

Elves have always done what they had to do against evil.


I'm not saying the elves didn't fight against evil, when they could or when they had to or when there was no other choice or even when they damn well felt like it. But the elves disliked change and they had a habit of trying to preserve what they had in little hidden kingdoms like Lothlorien. They had a different way of fighting evil - after all they had ages to deal with evil whereas Men, individually, had very little time. At the end of the Third Age they had very little choice. The change they had so long fought off would overtake them anyway once the Ring was destroyed. There was no other choice then. No doubt if the confrontation with Sauron hadn't happened then they would have carried on as they were for another few thousand years.

When I said that elves dislike change and hide away from evil I was thinking of Tolkien's own description of elves (in general) and the words he uses such as 'fading', 'embalming', 'decay'...

Letters
They wanted the peace and bliss and perfect memory of 'The West', and yet to remain on the ordinary earth where their prestige as the highest people, above wild Elves, dwarves, and Men, was greater than at the bottom of the hierarchy of Valinor. They thus became obsessed with 'fading', the mode in which the changes of time (the law of the world under the sun) was perceived by them. They became sad, and their art (shall we say) antiquarian, and their efforts all really a kind of embalming - even though they also retained the old motive of their kind, the adornment of earth, and the healing of tis hurts. We hear of a lingering kingdom in the extreme North-west... blah blah blah.... and of other settlements, such as Imladris... blah blah blah.... The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. change viewed as a regrettable thing)


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Vee
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Eru's thoughts (Ainur)

Post#154 » Sun Jan 16, 2005 5:10 am

Rhapsody, Olorin gave a pretty good answer to at least one of your questions. Any comments on what he said? Did it help at all?


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GrevBukMcJern
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Eru's thoughts (Ainur)

Post#155 » Sun Jan 16, 2005 3:39 pm

Well I am not interested in that. Just quoting from a book isn't that helpful for a discussion and once I see it is quoted I skip the text. I want to know a persons viewpoint, not that of Tolkien.

I agree with the Dutchesse here. To use a quote to illustrate or support a point is OK, but it is the point the person is making that is interesting, not the quote itself.
What are you looking down here for?

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Vee
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Eru's thoughts (Ainur)

Post#156 » Sun Jan 16, 2005 3:55 pm

Plenty of those here with or without quotes.

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virumor
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Eru's thoughts (Ainur)

Post#157 » Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:07 am

Well I am not interested in that. Just quoting from a book isn't that helpful for a discussion and once I see it is quoted I skip the text.

Ppl sometimes give quotes to try to answer any questions a person may have. Glad to see that is appreciated. I actually thought i was helping ppl out with giving quotes.

I usually skip a person's viewpoint when either a quote or JRRT himself shows that person's viewpoint is incorrect. Which is the reason i'm outta this thread. It's no point discussion when ppl don't even read what's included in the Sil. Pathetic.
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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rhapsody
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Eru's thoughts (Ainur)

Post#158 » Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:25 am

Ok, this is my 3rd attempt of typing a reply.... arrrrgh. Not sure if I can capture that momentum of the first two..

Olorin's posts are great, yeah. But. There is always a but ;) I am not asking about Melkor's nature, but that of Eru himself. I know more then enough about Melkor.

Laurelindhe ilmarin posted on Monday 10th January 2005 (05:45pm)

Dark Duelist, yes the choice of evil is always there, but one cannot be wholly evil without there being evil already innate in that person...otherwise they are only pseudo-evil, which is much less menacing and far more like the lovable badguy, who is not evil but merely misunderstood.

And anyway, what in tarnation does that have to do with Eru's thoughts?


If Eru created Melkor as an offspring from his mind, shouldn't Eru have evil in himself? Did he create Melkor with the potential that such an offspring could turn evil? Even more, didn't Eru cast Melkor into the void because maybe it was hard to see that such an creature mirrors something from yourself that you rather do not want to see? Or even more, when he tried to correct this offspring, did he fail because he himself did not fully understood this part of himself? Just some musings. As Virumor said somewhere else: Tolkien did not explain or did not wish to explain everything, so I am wondering what the thoughts of others are on this.

Somehow an Eru with both good and evil inside himself sounds more believable then a only good Eru and would explain more how Melkor could have become like he did.

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rhapsody
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Eru's thoughts (Ainur)

Post#159 » Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:28 am

Virumor wrote:
I usually skip a person's viewpoint when either a quote or JRRT himself shows that person's viewpoint is incorrect. Which is the reason i'm outta this thread. It's no point discussion when ppl don't even read what's included in the Sil. Pathetic.


I currently have two editions from the Sil, UT and the letters 10 cm away from me. If I want to know a quote I can look it up myself. Some quoted purely from the Sil without saying why, I skip those posts yes. Is it so bad to be interested in someone elses pov? For me it just gives me some insight or an angle I have never thought of.

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Vee
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Eru's thoughts (Ainur)

Post#160 » Mon Jan 17, 2005 6:22 am

Rhapsody - you are asking much the same question as I did to start this thread. There have been many points of view both with and withoutTokien quotes . Those POV have lead to other POV and so on. Rather than ask the same question perhaps you could pick up on some of the comments already made and form more questions from them and give us your POV on those comments.

As for quotes, they give insight into where a POV may have come from and in a thread like this I think they are invaluable.

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