Eru's thoughts (Ainur)

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Vee
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Eru's thoughts (Ainur)

Post#91 » Sun Oct 24, 2004 5:42 pm

Ok, now what about Orcs then? They aren't completely mindless puppets, Morgoth put foward some of his might into his creations, so they could have some sort of will? Although though their will was bent towards Morgoths cause.


As I understand it the orcs weren't created by Melkor, they were bred from elves and men and were corrupted into what became orcs who probably then just bred more of the same.

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virumor
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Eru's thoughts (Ainur)

Post#92 » Sun Oct 24, 2004 5:42 pm

Ok, now what about Orcs then? They aren't completely mindless puppets, Morgoth put foward some of his might into his creations, so they could have some sort of will? Although though their will was bent towards Morgoths cause.

He created them from Elves, so of course they have free will, just evil free will. Everything they do, is directed towards destroying Elves (an honourable reason of existence, imo) because of Morgoth's will. Sauron did the same with his minions : notice his armies lost direction a bit at the Morannon after their boss got toppled.
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loni
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Post#93 » Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:10 pm

I never REALLY understood that bit. I always wondered why the Orcs didn't fight on to avenge their master, like the goblins in the mountains did. Maybe because Sauron was a tyrant, and not one of them, and the Great Goblin was at least a Goblin.

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floyd_n_milan
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Post#94 » Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:16 pm

Speaking of free will, I find it amazing how people would follow a leader, even if they don't always agree with him. People always need someone as a leader. I can't fight a real life example like the one in "Fight Club" (Individual organisations, capable of operating without any central leadership). Oh well, maybe 19 years is too short time anyways!!

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eruwen
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Post#95 » Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:50 pm

Most of the time people follow others because they are too afraid to do otherwise; or even if they don't agree, they just haven't devised actions of their own. Also, what individual organization acted without central leadership in Fight Club? The entire organization was based around the central leadership of a schizophrenic or a person with a split personality disorder.

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GrevBukMcJern
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Post#96 » Mon Oct 25, 2004 4:44 am

Or watch The Experiment on BBC. To the psychologists chock and horror, the participants in the experiment was at the end moving towards a totalitarian, fascist society, and the experiment was aborted.

Short sum up: People in a power-vacuum or situation with a lot of uncertainty WILL ALWAYS seek leadership. They will even accept subjecting then self to an totalitarian dictator in order to obtain systen amd order. Which makes democracy something a lot more fragile than anyone expected.

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eruwen
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Post#97 » Mon Oct 25, 2004 10:10 am

There are many reasons why people follow a leader. Charasimtic leadership, the current situation of the follower person, compan, or country. There are many dynamics here. It is a mix.


I agree, there are many reasons people follow others. I was speaking more to the point Floyd made about why people would follow someone they disagree with...fear is the most likely suspect.

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rhapsody
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Post#98 » Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:01 am

Or mass hysteria or dynamics of the mass. We had enough of that when a politician got murdered here... I think our country never got the same after that.

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GrevBukMcJern
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Post#99 » Mon Oct 25, 2004 12:15 pm

A tiny comment about this:
We surely cannot grasp the concept of an infinite universe. Consider this. We make theories about how earth was formed. How our solar system came to be. How the life began on earth. Can anyone ever make a judgement about how the galaxies came to be? The stars, the planets, they're all made of some matter. Can anyone ever explain how that matter came into existance? No.

The only thing we are really cluless about is the nature of life. We know how galaxies are formed. And galaxy clusters. And super clusters, aka "cosmic strings".

The build up of matter is known. (nucleosynthesis) Light can turn into matter (and anti-matter) in a process called pair production. Matter is not quite as solid as we think. It consists of mostly empty space. You have never tuched your keyboard, or anything else for that matter. The macroscopic world we live in has only 2 fundamental forces, gravity and the electrical force. Gravity keeps us on the ground and makes galaxies etc, all else is due to the electrical force. Colour. Taste. Light. Solidity. Opacity. Structure. How something feel. Is it smooth or rough? You never touch it. You only feel the electrical force between your fingers and the object.

I would say there is nothing unexplainable with the natural world. Althoug a lot of the explanations are still hidden from us, there is no reason to think it impossible to find them.

How the human mind works, however, now that is a mystery. :)
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rhapsody
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Post#100 » Mon Oct 25, 2004 1:15 pm

There are many reasons why people follow a leader. Charismatic leadership, the current situation of the follower as a person, company, or country. There are many dynamics here. It is a mix.

For those still in school or selecting new classes for the next semester: try organizational psychology.

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