Morgoths evil

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Lord Of All
Posts: 633

Morgoths evil

Post#1 » Mon Jan 23, 2006 5:59 am

I wonder if anyone knows of a quote by Tokien stating that melkor was either the ultimate evil of arda in all the ages or a quote stating that melkor was irrational?
Thanks

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Vee
Posts: 2711

Morgoths evil

Post#2 » Mon Jan 23, 2006 10:19 am

I don't know of any direct quotes but Tolkien refers to Melkor/Morgoth in 'Letters' as the 'Prime Dark Lord'. Also, Melkor was seen as the eldest of the Valar and had the greatest gifts of power and knowledge from Eru so it is hard to think of anything that could be more evil and powerful than Melkor.

I wonder if some of Melkor's evil/corruption (or whatever) seeped its way through the music into the creation of elves as Feanor seems to have a few of Melkor's traits when it comes to vanity, desire, ambition, greed... ?


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Lord Of All
Posts: 633

Morgoths evil

Post#3 » Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:33 am

Yes i agree melkor is the supreme evil of the world but unfortunately on another forum a very heated debate has arison with people saying that Sauron was more evil than Melkor. They provide a quote by tolkien saying that sauron is the most evil of all beings that are rational in his book. Now unless i have a quote stating that melkor was more evil or was irrational i am afraid the agument is lost. there must be a quote somewhere.

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Vee
Posts: 2711

Morgoths evil

Post#4 » Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:16 pm

I don't know which quote you are referring to. Good discussions are not based on one quote taken out of context so if you want comments on 'the quote' you must give us more information.

By the way, I deleted one of your other threads as you were asking exactly the same question there as you have here.

To address a couple of your comments in other threads, we do use English here but our membership is worldwide and that is something we cherish and we respect other opinions whether or not we disagree.

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Lord Of All
Posts: 633

Morgoths evil

Post#5 » Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:17 pm

Hmm well on this other forum they have a quote stating that of all rational beings Sauron was the most evil. if i provide a quote stating that melkor is irrational then I have utterly flawed there quote they have clung to so tightly. Melkor in my mind certainly seems irrational, at least after his imprisonment in the halls of mandos.
To be precise the quote goes something like this..."For i do not believe in wholly evil for that would be zero. In my story sauron is the most evil of rational beings."
Now why would Tolkien have said 'rational beings' if that was meant to include all beings? He should have simply said "In my story Sauron is the most evil of beings", but he put rational beings so that must mean than at least one irrational being was more evil than him so that must mean morgoth.
I just need the quote...
Excuse any offence from me towards non brits, it was not intended to be offencive, it is just when the site home page came up somewhere it said it was britains largest online Tolkien community i just assumed most were brits.

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grondmaster
Posts: 25451

Morgoths evil

Post#6 » Mon Jan 23, 2006 4:22 pm

Ungoliant and Shelob were a comparable unrational evil duo to that of Melkor/Morgoth and Sauron; and the relative evilness between each of the paired members is about the same, IMHO.
'Share and enjoy'

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Lord Of All
Posts: 633

Morgoths evil

Post#7 » Tue Jan 24, 2006 2:00 am

Any means of reasoning and logic they do not seem to be able to care for on this other forum. Unless you can provide text evidence your (anyones) oppinion is nothing to them.

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valedhelgwath
Posts: 4233

Morgoths evil

Post#8 » Tue Jan 24, 2006 3:02 am

Yes i agree melkor is the supreme evil of the world but unfortunately on another forum a very heated debate has arison with people saying that Sauron was more evil than Melkor. They provide a quote by tolkien saying that sauron is the most evil of all beings that are rational in his book. Now unless i have a quote stating that melkor was more evil or was irrational i am afraid the agument is lost. there must be a quote somewhere.


I opened the other thread (Morgoth I Cried), in which you also raised this question, before this one. Funny enough, not knowing the reason for your enquery, but just seeing your statement claiming Morgoth was the more evil of the two, I actually countered that with an argument of my own, saying that was not necessarily so. It would seem then, the discussion (not argument) has spilled over onto this site. That is a good thing, as differences of opinion make for great discussion.

Maybe as people discuss this question on this site, ideas will come forward that were not discussed on the other site, and provide you with ammunition to use there. I will post my previous answer to your question over here, as having similar discussions occuring in two threads becomes messy and confusing.

Lord of all posted

Just so everyone here is certain Melkor, morgoth upon arda is the most evil of all beings so don't some people start thinking sauron is more so. Just something stupid which came up on another forum, that some people started saying that Sauron was the more evil.


Grondmaster replied

Our members are more knowledgeable, most having read the books more times than they have watched the movies.


My response was

But evil is subjective. How can you judge how evil someone is? Without doubt, Melkor was the more powerful, but how can you measure their respective evil. From what I can see, both had pretty similar goals and lack of redeeming features, it's just that Melkor had more power to achieve his and leave his mark upon the world.

Melkor caused more misery to the world than Sauron, not because he was more evil, but because he was more powerful. Evil comes from within. It cannot be seen directly, only judged by the actions that occur as a result of it. Who is the more evil; a national leader who orders the genocide of another race, or the little guy who works in a paint shop by day, but is so torn with xenophobic predjudice that given the opportunity he would wipe out everyone who wasn't of his own race? In this example, the first man was probably responsible for millions of deaths, whereas the second was seen as being your "average Joe", who never harmed anyone. Which is the more evil, though? The second guy just did not have the opportunity/power to demonstrate his evil. In terms of his actions the two men do not even register on the scale, but in terms of evil intent, they are probably no different from one another.

Looking at evil in terms of what evil really is then; intent to do harm rather the scale of the harm it actually causes, is it that easy to dismissively say Melkor was far more evil than Sauron? In his acts we have more evidence, but that is a function of his greater power, rather than evidence of greater evil. Personally, I would say both were equally evil.

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miruvor
Posts: 849

Morgoths evil

Post#9 » Tue Jan 24, 2006 3:07 am

I looked into it, and JRRT never stated in one of his Letters that Melkor was irrational or the most evil. He merely refers to Melkor as a rebel, in Luciferian fashion.

If someone wants to dig into HOME, be my guest.

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Lord Of All
Posts: 633

Morgoths evil

Post#10 » Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:31 am

Tokien seems very fixed on the deeds of a person to find out the specific wanted quality. The deeds that melkor did were far more potent and numerous than Saurons deeds for instance. I bet nobody can add the deeds of sauron up to the deeds of melkor:
Entered arda and destroyed all of the Valars works particulaly the destruction of Illuin and ormal highest ever mountains, and therefore brought around a complete change in the structure of the world.
He then creates his fortresses in the iron mountains and with the coming of the children of Eru he captured some of the elves and tortured them into the orcs, thus being a direct mockery of the children of iluvatar.
He then has his second war with the valar which also changes the world, particulalrly middle-earth, the inland sea of ringol disappearing and various mountains chains and the forming of the dark/south land.
After long he is realeased from the halls of manwe and goes back over to south middle-earth and gains the allegiance of Ungoliant and smouts the two trees of light, and kills finwe the high king of the noldor and steals the precious silmarils.
He causes then unquite with the eldar of the undying realm and the ainur.
He then has five wars with the people of beleriand in which Fingolfin, high king of the noldor and feanor his brother are both killed. In the fifth battle then he has vertually captured Beleriand. He then has the war of wrath with the valar in which his defeat comes.
He also causes the terrible Dagor dagorath to arise.
There are amny more deeds that he does but i cannot recall them now.
If Melkor succeding in the deeds department does not satify you what would you say if i said 'Olorin was more good than manwe'? You would think that is rubbish i am sure which is true so why not can melkor be more evil than sauron? His altimate enemy is Eru followed by the Valar. Who is Saurons ultimate enemy? Gandalf? the elves of middle earth? neither of which are of a comparison.

Suppose i told you guys that if melkor had conquered in the war of wrath and take over Valinor itself and completlely rule arda, he would then turn round and destroy even his own servants and then have arda marred beyond repair. That is true and alot worse than Sauron plan to have dominion of middle-earth for he probably would not have taken aman for his fear of the valar.

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