Elves vs Morgoth

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haldir_lorienwarrior
Posts: 602

Elves vs Morgoth

Post#1 » Mon May 07, 2007 2:34 pm

I was just wandering, if the elves, when Feanor and most of his father's house crossed into Bereliand, had any chance of victory against Morgoth anyway disregarding later battles. As in did they really have a chance of complete victory, say if Feanor didn't die, and Thingol helped out early on?

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virumor
Posts: 3567

Elves vs Morgoth

Post#2 » Mon May 07, 2007 2:53 pm

As in did they really have a chance of complete victory, say if Feanor didn't die, and Thingol helped out early on?

No, since it was decreed in the Doom of Mandos that they'd never defeat one who was formerly of the Valar, that they would experience exteme pain & sorrow, death, so on and such like.
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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haldir_lorienwarrior
Posts: 602

Elves vs Morgoth

Post#3 » Tue May 08, 2007 1:45 am

well, looks like maybe ill have to reread that bit. thanks!

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eädollon
Posts: 44

Elves vs Morgoth

Post#4 » Tue May 08, 2007 3:29 am

There are some other clues in the Silmarillion that shows more or less clearly elves could not defeat Morgoth.

In the chapter about Dagor-nuin-Giliath it is said that just before he died Feanor had a look at the Thangorodrim and realized that Morgoth cannot be defeated.

Also before in the book there is a comment about Manwe thinking that the noldor could not win. An interesting aspect here is that he also expects the exile may at least have some good consequence for human race - and it is a fact that noldor settlement in ME have provided a sort of shelter for some human houses protecting them from Morgoth - To me that is an ambiguous aspect of the Valar policy regaring noldor exile in ME and awakening of human race which is kind of resolved in the Silmarillon- but in the earlier drafts (i.e. BoLT) they appear acting much more selfish - but well this is another topic ...

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Lord Of All
Posts: 633

Elves vs Morgoth

Post#5 » Tue May 08, 2007 4:04 am

As already said it was extemely improbable that any of the Peoples of Middle-earth could have defeated Morgoth. However there was one battle that, had King Thingol sent aid as well as more help that should have come from other regions, perhaps the battle would have been victorious and Morgoth ovethrown:

"Then hope was renewed in the hearts of the Elves; and in that very time, at the third hour of morning, the trumpets of Maedhros were heard at last coming up from the east, and the banners of the sons of Fëanor assailed the enemy in the rear. Some have said that even then the Eldar might have won the day, had all their hosts proved faithful; for the Orcs wavered, and their onslaught was stayed, and already some were turning to flight."

So as we see there was a point where the Eldar might have won. If Thingol had waived his anger at the sons of Feanor and sent an army to join the union of Maedros and perhaps more help coming from Nargothrond then it is likely they would have won. But becuase Thingol sent squat they were defeated.

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grondmaster
Posts: 25451

Elves vs Morgoth

Post#6 » Tue May 08, 2007 5:59 pm

There are diferences in might have won, could have won, and would have won; and this wasn't against Morgoth, but just against his minions.
'Share and enjoy'

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Lord Of All
Posts: 633

Elves vs Morgoth

Post#7 » Wed May 09, 2007 5:11 am

Good point there Grondmaster however I quote further:

"But even as the vanguard of Maedhros came upon the Orcs, Morgoth loosed his last strength, and Angband was emptied. There came wolves, and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs, and dragons, and Glaurung father of dragons."

As we can see here Morgoth loosed his LAST strength. All of Angband was emptied. Had the Elves had a host of 10-15 thousand from Thingol and perhaps 5000 from Nargothrond perhaps (not definate but I would say probable) Morgoth's last strength would have been overcome and the Eldar have won.

Also another condition was that the hosts of Men under Meadros' command stayed faithful. If Ulfang and co had stayed loyal as well its unlikely that Morgoth could have succeeded.

As it was Thingol and Nargothrond sent very few, if anything of significance and Ulfang betrayed Maedros. Thus caused the defeat and from then on Morgoth was an undefeatable enemy to the Peoples of Middle-earth.

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valedhelgwath
Posts: 4233

Elves vs Morgoth

Post#8 » Sat May 12, 2007 4:13 am

I think had everything gone in their favour (eg. Thingol aiding them, and some of the men remaining faithful rather betraying them), they may have defeated Morgoth. Like it said, Morgoth was forced to use his last reserves. At one point they were banging on his gates and he withdrew in fear.

It was not to be, however. They were not fully united and some of the men did betray them. Mandos would have seen this, and hence knew their doom. I don't think he was saying to them, "You have no chance," but rather, "I have seen your future... things will go wrong and you will lose." Under different circumstances I think they stood a chance. Okay Morgoth was a fallen Valar, but Fingolfin gave him a good fight in a single combat. Imagine a legion of elven heroes trapping him in one of his chambers... bloody, but they'd probably manage to overcome him. By creating Morgoth's Ring he had effectively bound himself to flesh and the earth, so he was assailable.

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virumor
Posts: 3567

Elves vs Morgoth

Post#9 » Sat May 12, 2007 6:27 am

A legion of Elven heroes would not even be necessary.

Just send in another sultry she-elf like Lúthien and Morgoth becomes so beguiled that he swoons.
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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eädollon
Posts: 44

Elves vs Morgoth

Post#10 » Sat May 12, 2007 7:56 am

Just send in another sultry she-elf like Lúthien and Morgoth becomes so beguiled that he swoons.


Yep. btw Beren and Luthien should have left those damned Silmarils alone and looked after Morgoth before.

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