Elves vs Morgoth

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cloveress
Posts: 2289

Elves vs Morgoth

Post#51 » Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:12 am

That is my point. There is no point in speculating what Feanor might have done if Melkor wasn't there becuase Fate had already planned the course of his life for him. Thus Mandos knew that Feanor's life would be short and that 'He would come to him soon'.


Actually, I agree with Glorfindel that such problems are worthy of discussion because usually things that are 'fated' can have only one outcome, although many paths can lead to that outcome. Therefore, whatever decrees of "fate" or "doom" that Eru set down in the Music or earlier in his own mind should be able to have been accomplished regardless of how it came about.

For example, Eru probably meant for Feanor to lead the Noldor back to Middle-Earth. Therefore, I think that such a thing would've happened, regardless of how. I mean, it was Morgoth's lies that led to the theft of the Silmarils and the murder of Finwe in the story; but it could have been due to something else, perhaps Feanor's unhappiness at his step-mom and half-brothers. It does say in the Silmarillion that Feanor was not overly happy when his father remarried. And that was BEFORE Melkor spread his malicious lies. The point I'm trying to make is that Eru set down a root of jealousy and arrogance in Feanor, and that root would have come to germinate, bud, and bear bitter fruit in the end regardless of which factor sparked it. And the factors that sparked it could have been many. It could've been Morgoth; it could have been a nastier son of his. It could have been a passing jest. It could have been simply growing self-obssession on his own part... But no matter what it was, it would lead to the same result. Feanor leads Noldor out of paradise and into the real world.

So it is actually quite fun to talk about the other possiblities because it can prove that what actually happened was inevitable. And in the end, of course, you will find out that although there are many ways of a certain Fate working out for one particular character, there is only ONE way that the fates of ALL the characters can work out together. Which is why you can call my last paragraph useless, but I just wanted everyone to see the process of thinking... that's all. It's from the process that we learn and understand, anyways...

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virumor
Posts: 3567

Elves vs Morgoth

Post#52 » Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:45 pm

Considering Tolkien's faith, which he wove into everything he wrote, in the Universe he created only the End is fated - the ultimate destruction of all things evil, Dagor Dagorath, similar to the Apocalyps as described in the Book of Revelation.

Everything in between, are mere ripples, stirrings of good & evil compared to the End.
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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Lord Of All
Posts: 633

Elves vs Morgoth

Post#53 » Sat Jun 16, 2007 3:12 pm

Considering Tolkien's faith, which he wove into everything he wrote


"There is no 'allegory', moral, political, or contemporary in the work at all." Letter 181

"There is no 'symbolism' or conscious allegory in my story." Letter 203

There are many other quotes stating that Tolkien's mind doesn't work Allegorically. At best you can say he used certain idears out of religion and interwove them into his work. Saying he used religion in everything he wrote is inaccurate by a long stretch.

"I have deliberately written a tale, which is built on or out of certain 'religious' ideas, but is not an allegory of them (or anything else), and does not mention them overtly, still less preach them, I will not now depart from that mode, and venture on theological disquisition for which I am not fitted." Letter 211

There are many things fated in Tolkien's myth not just the End. And there is only one being who has the Power to exercise fate.

imladmorgul
Posts: 33

Elves vs Morgoth

Post#54 » Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:08 pm

There's a quote in The Silmarillion pertinent to the question as to whether the Elves could have defeated Morgoth. In fact, the whole thing probably could have been avoided:
"Some have held that whether he had said yea or nay (to Yavanna's request for the Silmarils to revive the Trees) then maybe his later deeds would have been other than they were." (or something to that effect.) In other words, if Feanor had relinquished ownership of the Silmarils so that the Trees could be revived, when Melkor stole the Jewels the Valar would have wasted no time in chasing him down and wresting the SIlmarils back from them. In fact, they probably would have allowed the Noldor to lead the attack and avenge the murder of Finwe their King.
But then, the history of the later Ages would have been VASTLY different.

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virumor
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Elves vs Morgoth

Post#55 » Tue May 06, 2008 7:37 am

Lúthien did defeat Morgoth when she dulled his senses with her entrancing, sensual dance, filling his mind with what is described as the most devious plan he had ever concocted, but a plan that turned on himself and sent him plummeting to the floor overcome by beguilment.

One can only wonder upon the details of this plan. Undoubtedly Lúthien played a major part in it; perhaps he had envisioned to corrupt the fairest of all Children of Ilúvatar and replace his chief lieutenant, Sauron, with her, for indeed she was half-Maia and had after all already defeated his apprentice and proven her mettle.

But fortunately for the fate of Arda this plan did not work out! For indeed, with Lúthien at his side Morgoth's victory would've been inevitable and utterly, without even the combined might of the Valar to stop him; for Lúthien was driven by a fate stronger than the will of the Valar, just as the fate of Beren.

In the end, even, when Morgoth would ascend the Throne of his brother Manwë in the Halls of Oiolossë, would that pale Enchantress be content to keep standing by her Master? Would she accept Varda's throne by Morgoth's side and be willing to share all Power in Arda?

I think the answer is obvious.
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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cloveress
Posts: 2289

Elves vs Morgoth

Post#56 » Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:16 am

What is all this mysoginy??

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Thorin Oakenshield
Posts: 4593

Elves vs Morgoth

Post#57 » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:33 am

"Some have held that whether he had said yea or nay (to Yavanna's request for the Silmarils to revive the Trees) then maybe his later deeds would have been other than they were."


You're right Imladmorgul. This is found in Of the Flight of the Noldor. The extract is a narrative:

... ,yet had he said yea at the first, before the tidings cam from formenos, it may be that his after deeds would have been other than they were.


Personally i think that this hints that if Feanor had agreed to submit the Silmarils to Yavanna, then the Valar themselves would have assaulted Morgoth to recover the Silmarils.

I also think that no children of Eru would have been able to overthrow Morgoth unless that was his fate, as manwe also decreed:

Then thou hast sworn in vain, for none of the Valar canst thou overcast now or ever within the halls of Ea, not though Eru whom thou namest had made thee thrice greater than thu art.
The Old that is Strong does not Wither.

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virumor
Posts: 3567

Elves vs Morgoth

Post#58 » Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:46 am

What is all this mysoginy??

Misogyny? You misunderstand. It was nigh impossible to look upon Lúthien and not love her - much to the detriment of heroes like Beren, Daeron and Celegorm.

Indeed, envy of Lúthien's beauty must have driven the Lady Galadriel on her dark path, culminating in her desire to take up the One Ring and become Dark Queen; her prime desire was not to rule Middle-earth, but to be known again as the fairest of Children of Ilúvatar, like during the Years of the Trees in Valinor when myriads of foppish (read: Vanyarin) suitors had been vying for her attentions (most likely by means of poetry and fencing competitons), but this reverance to her scrawny figure came to a screeching halt with the birth of blessed Tinúviel.

Indeed, Galadriel wanted to erase all memory of Lúthien by using the Ring's profane enchantments to enhance her own beauty and became as fair as Varda herself; and, if this was not possible, use a more direct approach by eradicating all Elven life from the face of Endor, and rule the remainder of Naugrim and Atani, whose weak minds and short memory spans would practically ensure her desires to be fulfilled for ever.
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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galin
Posts: 1369

Elves vs Morgoth

Post#59 » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:25 am

You cannot defeat Morgoth by sticking a blade through him. If you could then Luthien would have done it. More to the point the Valar would have done it. Instead they cast him through the Door of Night. If you could utterly vanquish him by such basic other methods they would have done it.


My guess is the Valar did do something like this; it seems so according to JRRT in Morgoth's Ring at least (italics are as printed in the book):

'He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and executed: that is killed like one of the Incarnates (...) We read that he was then thrust out into the Void.'

JRRT text VII, Notes on motives in the Silmarillion


Fingolfin challenged Morgoth out of wrath and anger of what he saw was the destruction of his House. In truth there was no way he could have won the battle. Even if he disarmed Morgoth from his Great Mace and had a chance to thrust Ringil through his chest It wouldn't have defeated him.


The Quenta Silmarillion relates that (it was said that) Melkor was unwilling to take up this challenge, and that he knew fear, and that he could not deny the challenge before the face of his captains. He came forth in black armour, and gave a cry of anguish at each wounding, and the wound to his foot troubled him since that day.

In text VII Tolkien notes: '[Morgoth's staying 'at home' has, as described above, quite a different reason: his fear of being killed or even hurt (the literary motive is not present, for since he is pitted against the Elder King, the issue of any one of his enterprises is always in doubt).]'

JRRT, Morgoth's Ring

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virumor
Posts: 3567

Elves vs Morgoth

Post#60 » Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:55 am

They must have locked Nienna in a closet prior to lobbing off Old Grumpy's head.

I also wonder whether this head ended up as a prize on the wall in the Halls of Oiolossë. I guess there's a bigger chance that it ended up on a pike in the middle of the Circle of Mahanaxar, instead.
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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