Elves at Helms Deep

MadWannabe
Posts: 170

Elves at Helms Deep

Post#51 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

I really hated the part the elves came too, it totally spoiled the battle on Helm's Deep. The battle of Helm's Deep was meant to show the power and independence of man. It was meant to show that the Age of Men is near and that Men are able to stand up against amazing odds and not back down, this shows that Men are ready to suceed the next age. It is something like the elves battle with Morgoth...when elves were the main race on Middle-Earth. About PJ's addition of the elves to Helm's Deep, well maybe he just wanted to add more glitz to the show and make it more interesting with the elves and also to cover up for his scene in most of the elves passing to the west...

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PlasticSquirrel
Posts: 3577

Elves at Helms Deep

Post#52 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am


Yeah, I missed the Huorns as well. Somehow I doubt we'll see them in the extended version. Ah well, here's to hoping. :alchaholic:


I've heard something (in fact i think I read it in a Jackson interview) about this, and I think we may well be pleasantly surprised come November (Huorn a-go-go)
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Rosie_Cotton
Posts: 37

Elves at Helms Deep

Post#53 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

"My opinion: The Elves should never have been at Helms Deep! And: I will never, EVER forgive PJ for killing Haldir! "

my sentiments entirely it is simply not justified. How could he kill an elf, elves aren't meant to die. This is NOT their battle!!

Erkenbrand
Posts: 41

Elves at Helms Deep

Post#54 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Elves are supposed to be cooler than that! Think 300 fighters like Legolas (only higher, right?), not 300 combat droids with bows...


I think our impression of Elves, about how cool they seem (especially since people have seen Legolas in action in the movies) have somehow led us to believe that Elves are way more superior in strength.

Elves are NOT stronger than Man. It was mentioned in Silmarillion that they were mighty as well, the difference being they were not immortal, more vulnerable and heal slower than the Elves. This DOES NOT make them any less greater than the Elves as fighters.

Military precision wasn't invented until after the middle ages, anyway, same with uniforms, and though I know that doesn't mean too much, I just don't accept it as an excuse. Do you think you could convince an elf it was worth his time to march in step with the rest of the people he's known for thousands of years? I mean, why would they need to? I guess it looked impressive, but I still think its out of character.


The story was not written in accordance to historical development of the world as we know it. Hence even though military precision came after the middle ages, we have to view it from a separate point of view. Can we say that the Elves, wisened beyond any person we know in the real world and who have lived for so many years are incapable of exercising a simple concept of discipline???

The battle of Helm's Deep was meant to show the power and independence of man. It was meant to show that the Age of Men is near and that Men are able to stand up against amazing odds and not back down, this shows that Men are ready to suceed the next age.


I totally agree with this. Although it is cool to see Elves fighting side by side with Man as in the early days, this really is Man's battle. But PJ has crafted Elrond in such a way that he seemed like a very self-centered Elf with absolutely no concern for the battle on Middle Earth and is leaving for the Undying Lands without offering any form of assistance. If PJ had not included the Elves in Helm's Deep, viewers would have perceived that Elves were leaving humans in the lurch to face the impending doom. Viewers would never know of the separate wars that the Elves fought that Tolkien had spoken of in the original story. Due to these reasons, the appearance of the Elves at Helm's Deep was a "necessary evil", though Tolkien purists would leave out the "necessary"... :P:

Dain_II
Posts: 28

Elves at Helms Deep

Post#55 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

The story was not written in accordance to historical development of the world as we know it. Hence even though military precision came after the middle ages, we have to view it from a separate point of view.


Right, I acknowledged that (clumsily). ;)

Can we say that the Elves, wisened beyond any person we know in the real world and who have lived for so many years are incapable of exercising a simple concept of discipline???


Well, why and how do you train an army to be disciplined? I mean, think of boot camp. Do you see elves going through boot camp? Having their independence crushed out of them? I mean, they aren't professional soldiers, they are all like medieval knights or men-at-arms, in a way, learning to fight at leisure over their long, long lives. Knights were notorious for their indiscipline.
Then, take into account the intelligence and wisdom of the elves. Discipline in armies was to make ordinary, if not stupid, people do stupid things (like stand in rows a hundred feet apart and shoot at each other...) without a second thought. Now, first, since elves are smart enough to each grasp the overall importance of their individual role in battle, they don't need to be pounded into a brainless troop of robot-soldiers by their drill-sergeants in order to be an effective fighting force. I suppose it's the difference between discipline (doing what you are told/need to do) and discipline (marching in step, wearing the same thing, not looking to right and left, acting like automatons). The two do not necessarily equate--the elves could be the greatest fighting force on ME without resorting to military discipline as we have had in our history.

About the strength issue: I know men are just as strong, often, as elves, and the riders of Rohan are great warriors, but we're talking about people who live for a very, very long time. After a thousand years of even infrequent practice, wouldn't you think they'd get pretty good at fighting? And they would practice, especially in closely-guarded Lorien. Anyway, that's not my main point anymore, but I did think it was a little injust to have them show up, shoot a few arrows, and die. ;) I was thinking of Silmarillion battles where the piles of orcs corpses left by the elves reach to the sky! 10,000 would be nothing! But then, there are a lot of Uruk-hai in there (not all, but lots).

Lastly, yes, I see why PJ put them there, though maybe it isn't true to the books (I mean, they pretty much were leaving men and the rest of the world "in the lurch"), but as you and others said there are battles in Lorien and up north during LotR that we don't really hear about, so this is possibly PJs way of acknowledging that, too. Now, I'm just upset about how they were portrayed. But I'll have to watch it for a third time, too...

Why am I arguing for Elves anyway! I'm a dwarf! I usually have to argue against all the elf-fans (the millions of them)! :orcgin:

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Ross
Posts: 2147

Elves at Helms Deep

Post#56 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Elves do have the basic grasp of tactical formation fighting as you can see at the battle of unnumbered tears, but the majority of them realise their weaknesses and turn to partisan warfare. In this way there lack of armour and their enemies encumberance by it becomes their greatest ally.
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Inwe
Posts: 30

Elves at Helms Deep

Post#57 » Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:11 pm

I think that the elves at Helm's Deep was a sign for men.
Theoden: No, my Lord Aragorn, we are alone.

It showed them that they aren't alone. Even the elves knew that.
Haldir: I bring word from Elrond of Rivendell. An alliance once existed between elves and men. Long ago we fought and died together. We come to honor that alligence.

See what I mean?

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grondmaster
Posts: 25451

Elves at Helms Deep

Post#58 » Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:45 am

I wonder what other surprises brings "The return of the king" movie... Dwarves at Pelennor??...r
I will be posting my answer to this under [u]ROTK spoiler alert![/u] under [u] Return of the King[/u] when I finish reading this thread.
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virumor
Posts: 3567

Elves at Helms Deep

Post#59 » Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:45 am

One Elf at Helm's Deep is better than ten in Mirkwood. Or should that be the other way around.
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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grondmaster
Posts: 25451

Elves at Helms Deep

Post#60 » Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:14 pm

One Elf at Helm's Deep is better than ten in Mirkwood. Or should that be the other way around.
Well, I no longer know where this discussion is going, but one Elf was needed at Helms Deep to provide Gimli with a source of companionship and a sparing partner in order to maintain the head count of his victums. The rest of the Elves at PJ's Helm's Deep, while not necessary to the story, provided a sense of awe and even more to me, a deep sense of what the world has missed with their passing. I didn't get that with their journey to the Grey Havens and beyond in PJ's LOTR: Return of the King, but I did get it from those scenes in PJ's LOTR: The Two Towers.
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