Writing Gimli/Legolas's story

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grondmaster
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Writing Gimli/Legolas's story

Post#1 » Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:18 pm

Do you think when Tolkien was writing the developing friendship between Legolas and Gimli in The Lord of the Rings, that he actually planned it that way from the beginning towards softening The Silmarillion's emnity between the Elves and the Dwarves? Or was it just serendipity and these two characters just took over and wrote their own story?

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Loss
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Writing Gimli/Legolas's story

Post#2 » Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:49 pm

I think that the friendship forged between Legolas and Gimli was intentional from the start... The Three Kindreds in The Lord of the Rings was of Elves, Men and Dwarves, all free peoples of Middle-Earth coming together in friendship to combat the evil... 'The enemy of your enemy is your friend'... They would all form friendships in the Fellowship, they would not want to make the already doomful situation anymore hard by having the same old argument, (though there were some 'words' spoken ill-willed). The chancing of the three main races coming together for the same cause would see an end to the quarreling and settle it for the end of the tales... Chronologically there would be no more tales or stories about Middle-Earth and Arda, so maybe Tolkien wanted a more peaceful Middle-Earth to leave us with... The close relationship with Legolas and Gimli did change the views of many Dwarves and Elves, recognising that the deeds done by the two [u]together[/u] can set an example for the ages to come, I think it was intentional to break whatever difference they had...

It would have also closed the quarrel of spouses Yavanna and Aulë, which is what started the whole difference between them in the first place, the Elves loving the trees for their beauty and life (Yavanna), the Dwarves for their love of cutting down for creation (Aulë)... among other debates throughout the ages... Setting the example for future generations of Elves and Dwarves I think was the original idea of Tolkien as he knew he wouldn't carry on writing past the beginning of the Fourth Age. Though the Elves did depart and not see the Dwarves much thereafter, the different thinking would probably be implanted in them forever on...

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virumor
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Writing Gimli/Legolas's story

Post#3 » Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:47 am

This enmity towards the Dwarves only concerned the Sindar and the Nandor. For some reason they did not like it when the Dwarves chopped King Thingol of Doriath in as many bits as they could.

Son-in-law Beren then decided to courageously wipe out those Dwarves by ambushing them Maquis-style (undoubtedly encouraged to this foul act by his loving spouse who now finally had the chance for a new necklace) and arrow them all down, obviously fearing the Dwarves' axes that were still red with the blood of Thingol.

As Celeborn was related to Thingol, as was Thranduil according to some versions, this made the Silvan Elves dislike the Dwarves too.

The Noldor, though, had always been friends of the Dwarves, which is why the Lady Galadriel summoned Gimli to come to her after the death of King Elessar the Mad, being desperately in need of a new jester.

As for Legolas & Gimli, I take it Tolkien made them friends in order to create something to do for them: hold endless inane conversations and soliloquys about a certain red-headed Elf, glittering caves and the future of Man.
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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grondmaster
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Writing Gimli/Legolas's story

Post#4 » Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:07 pm

Which Elves were more than bent out of shape at the Dwarves when the Western Gate of Khazad-dûm was closed, lessening their chance to escape Sauron's minions who were putting Eregion to the flame?
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virumor
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Writing Gimli/Legolas's story

Post#5 » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:13 am

Shutting the Gates was necessary to force the Elves to fight. The Dwarves understood that only through conflict and war one is truly tested and can better oneself, for peace and convalescence lead only to stagnation, apathy and ultimately enslavement and death... the Dwarves had no time for cowards fleeing in the shadows and refusing to fight for their people and land. If the Elves were routed, at least they died right up and fighting instead of cowering on their knees.

That is why the Dwarves never shut themselves from the world, unlike the Elves hiding in their forest realms, but instead took back their rightful homes by means of action - the Lonely Mountain from Smaug, Khazad-Dûm from the Orcs. That is also why the Dwarves fought in Nirnaeth Arnoediad, to aid those who had previously spitted on them, humiliated them and hunted them like animals.

But then, Elves were not made for fighting, they were made only to be beautiful and create beauty for which there was no more place after Arda was marred and had become a grim and violent place; when the few strength they had received had wained after hundreds of years of dwelling in the marred Middle-earth, they had no choice but to retreat in their artificial resorts and hope that somehow the other races would defeat Evil for them. But even then they would only keep on dwindling until they would be nothing but feeble, forgotten spirits.

This is a very important (perhaps the major) theme in Tolkien's works: the end of the old and the dawn of the new.

They were not made to be strong and hardy like Dwarves, or resourceful like Men. My conclusion is that they can both be blamed and not be blamed for their feelings towards Dwarves, and to a lesser degree, Men.
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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arath
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Writing Gimli/Legolas's story

Post#6 » Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:09 am

wheres loss' avatar? :shocked:

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virumor
Posts: 3567

Writing Gimli/Legolas's story

Post#7 » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:26 am

:moderator: How about sending a PM to Loss instead of pushing this thread off topic?
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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Loss
Posts: 3691

Writing Gimli/Legolas's story

Post#8 » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:30 am

Out of topic: I have already sent a PM to Grondy about it... I was trying another avy, but it wouldn't work, so I just tried to switch to my original and that also won't work... Now I'm stuck without it :( Help!

On with topic...

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grondmaster
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Writing Gimli/Legolas's story

Post#9 » Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:25 pm

Grondy hasn't received the PM and couldn't do anything about the avatar anyway other than to suggest you logout before and after trying to change your avatars. I've heard that sometimes helps.

:moderator: In a day or two I'll delete these off topic avatar posts.
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leelee
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Writing Gimli/Legolas's story

Post#10 » Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:45 pm

Having spent more time reading professor Tolkien's letters, over and over, than I care to admit, I don't think the relationship was intentional. It just seems that because it was language, his own, that was the basis of everything, he seems to have been all over the board with characters and their relationships to one another.
Just looking at the HObbit and the Silmarillon and then to the greater body of his work LOTR, it appears over the fifteen or so y ears that so much of it just suddenly popped into his head and seemed right, then not, then yes, then oh well. It was so epic that , it seems just going back over even some of it and working and reworking was beyond tedious after a while.
Still, I am not him, don't begin to think as he did, so I don't know really.

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