How to say Namárië

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Amarië
Posts: 2785

How to say Namárië

Post#1 » Sun Jan 02, 2005 7:51 am

Copied some post from a dicussion to a this thread, since it had nothing to do where we started it.

Amarië posted Friday 31st December 2004
Namarie,
Rhapsody
(hey that rimes!)

*Gasp!* Does this mean you have been calling Amaree all this time? I am shocked! Young lady, I banish you to the LOTR appendix untill you have learned to pronounce the e-s at the ending of elven words. :deal: Shouldn't take long, you should be done in good time before the fireworks.


(...)

Rhapsody posted Saturday 1st January 2005
Namárië
Nah-MAR-ee-ay

Rhap-so-dy, if you are a Southerner or an Aussie/Kiwi I can imagine it becomes Rhap-so-day.

So your case being?


Amarië posted Saturday 1st January 2005

My case is that you are wrong. ë or e is not pronouced ay. It is like a regular e like for example a German would say it, or a Norwegian like me. Appendix E explains how to say e. I am sure the Dutch version does too.

Rhapso-day is fun to say though. :)


Virumor posted Saturday 1st January 2005

Quote:
Namárië
Nah-MAR-ee-ay

Well Cate Blanchett in FOTR didn't pronounce it the "ay" way but use the "e" of the German Theobald, as explained in the Appendices. Not sure if the movies are the best source for learning Elvish, but anyway, let's trust someone with pointy ears.

And to stay on topic : welcome to the greenhorns.


Rhapsody posted Saturday 1st January 2005
APPENDIX E WRITING AND SPELLING
I PRONUNCIATION OF WORDS AND NAMES

VOWELS
For vowels the letters i, e, a, o, u are used, and (in Sindarin only) y. As far as can be determined the sounds represented by these letters (other than y) were of normal kind, though doubtless many local varieties escape detection.

STRESS
The position of the 'accent' or stress is not marked, since in the Eldarin languages concerned its place is determined by the form of the word. In words of two syllables it falls in practically all cases on the first syllable. In longer words it falls on the last syllable but one, where that contains a long vowel, a diphthong, or a vowel followed by two (or more) consonants. Where the last syllable but one contains (as often) a short vowel followed by only one (or no) consonant, the stress falls on the syllable before it, the third from the end. Words of the last form are favoured in the Eldarin languages, especially Quenya.
In the following examples the stressed vowel is marked by a capital letter: isIldur, Orome, erEssëa, fËanor, ancAlima, elentÁri; dEnethor, periAnnath, ecthElion, pelArgir, silIvren. Words of the type elentÁri 'star-queen' seldom occur in Quenya where the vowel is é, á, ó, unless (as in this case) they are compounds; they are commoner with the vowels í, ú, as and Úne 'sunset, west'. They do not occur in Sindarin except in compounds. Note that Sindarin dh, th, ch are single consonants and represent single letters in the original scripts.

It says nowhere how Namarie is pronounced in that appendix. But I did found the following:
namárië. In Dutch it would be said as ie... the Dutch variant of Rhapsody ends on an ie...

No I don't have a Dutch edition of LOTR nearby.


Virumor posted Saturday 1st January 2005
I thought Quenya should be pronounced as Latin or something. I'm sure it's mentioned somewhere in the appendices that "e" should be pronounced as in "Theobald" but i can't check it right now, sorry.

I also think that it is mentioned somewhere in the appendices that each letter should be pronounced separately, so the Dutch 'ie' would not be possible. For instance : Galadriel.

I'm no expert on Elvish languages, anyway. Peredhil should be able to enlighten us on this subject, but he has long gone unfortunately.


Rhapsody posted Saturday 1st January 2005
Nopes, me either, but being directed to the appendices and reading something like that confuses the hell out of me.. I am not a linguistic although playing with words aka writing is something I love.



Amarië posted Saturday 1st January 2005
Hmmm, I thought there would be word examples in the English version. In the Norwegian version the section about vowels says after ....though doubtless many local varieties escape detection.:
"That means that the sounds were approximatly the same as we would find in Norwegian fin, ser, ja, nok, bukk, no matter the vowel length." Then later it says that e in the end of words is never silent.

And since Vir mentioned Pere (miss him!!!!), he used Fauskangers Quenya course as base for his classes. To quote lesson a from that course:

Short e may be pronounced as in English end. In Quenya this sound also occurs in final position. Since word-final e is usually silent in English orthography, Tolkien often used the spelling ë in this position – and throughout this course, this spelling is employed consistently. This is only to remind English readers that in Quenya, this letter is to be distinctly pronounced. But since word-final e never occurs in spoken English, some speakers tend to substitute i or ey (following English practice in the rare cases of a final orthographic "e" being sounded, as when Jesse is pronounced "jessi", or karate is pronounced "karatey"). Quenya e should have the value described above in all positions. It must NOT be pronounced i, nor must there be a y-like sound creeping after it: lómë "night", morë "black", tinwë "sparkle".


Edited (or Virumored ;) ) by myself to include links to the Ardalambion and the Quenya course.


Rhapsody posted Saturday 2nd January 2005
I found it! The Dutch editition. It says: Al deze tweeklanken (including ie) waren 'verminderde' tweeklanken, d.w.z. met de klemtoon op het eerste element en samengesteld uit de versmolten eenvoudige klinkers. Zo is het de bedoeling dat ai,ei, oi. ui. respectievelijk worden uitgesproken als de klinkers in het Nederlands.

It basically says that Namarie should be prononounced, in our tongue as 'ie', the same would happen with when you say Rhapsody in Dutch.

*closes big book*
"Don't complain under the stars
about the lack of bright spots in you life."
Henrik Wergeland, Norwegian writer

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Amarië
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How to say Namárië

Post#2 » Sun Jan 02, 2005 8:02 am

Since I don't speak Dutch I have to guess what the text might say, I am guessing tweeklank means diphthong? And ie is not a diphthong in Quenya or in Sindarin, so it shouldn't be pronounced like one either, there for ie is pronounced like an i and an e, not like Dutch ie.

To quote Fauskanger again since I noticed that he mentiones Cate Blanchetts pronounciations too, like Vir did.
(Immediately after the line in which she mangles the name Eärendil, Cate Blanchett pronounces the Quenya word namárië, "farewell". I'm glad to say that she did a better job with this word, getting the -ië more or less right!)

Looks like this is one of the rare cases we can trust what the movie is telling us. :superscared:
"Don't complain under the stars

about the lack of bright spots in you life."

Henrik Wergeland, Norwegian writer

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rhapsody
Posts: 599

How to say Namárië

Post#3 » Sun Jan 02, 2005 9:51 am

And ie is not a diphthong in Quenya or in Sindarin, so it shouldn't be pronounced like one either, there for ie is pronounced like an i and an e, not like Dutch ie.


It says that it is a lesser dipthong (somehow I think it is about a fish) and should not be treated as such, in that case the words ie in Namarie should be spoken as the normal Dutch ie (because it says in Dutch that it should not be treated as a dipthong) which is i and e and is pronounced as ie as in eum... the ie in shriek.. Because not treating it as a dipthong lengthens the pronounciation. If it is a dipthong then the e is soft and hardly heard. I am so not cut out for this. Anyway the basic line: in Dutch it is Namarie pronounced as Namarie and not Namareh...

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Amarië
Posts: 2785

How to say Namárië

Post#4 » Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:02 pm

I am so not cut out for this.

Lol, I hear you. I am totally confused about Dutch sounds and letters now., my brain can't cope. :P:

Ignoring the stress (since we agree on that):
When I say namárië I say:
i as the i in still
e like the e in end
Namár-ee-eh (just about)

Are you still on Namár-ee-ay? Because ie in shriek sounds like ee to me, but it all depends how you say it I guess. Confuuuuuusiiiiiiiiing! *leaves to eat icecream instead*
"Don't complain under the stars

about the lack of bright spots in you life."

Henrik Wergeland, Norwegian writer

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rhapsody
Posts: 599

How to say Namárië

Post#5 » Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:53 pm


Lol, I hear you. I am totally confused about Dutch sounds and letters now., my brain can't cope.

Ignoring the stress (since we agree on that):
When I say namárië I say:
i as the i in still
e like the e in end
Namár-ee-eh (just about)


So the difference between your and mine language is how you pronounce the i. Here is is never ever absolutely pronounced as ee. So there we have it. If you say shriek you pronounce clearly the I right? And slighlty the e.... there you have it when the Dutch say Namarie. Funnilly enough on the Elf Fantasy Fair there was a Dutch woman saying Namarie as Na-mah-rie (maybe it helps when you think of the ending Marie). Maybe you and I should hit the pub and talk to each other ;)

Are you still on Namár-ee-ay? Because ie in shriek sounds like ee to me, but it all depends how you say it I guess.


Nah I was never on Namár-ee-ay, just joking on that one. I was serious on Na-mah-riiiie though.

Confuuuuuusiiiiiiiiing! *leaves to eat icecream instead*


I got Ben & Jerry's... want some?

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Amarië
Posts: 2785

How to say Namárië

Post#6 » Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:26 pm

Na-mah-riiiie. Yes, I think I can live with that. Ahhh we have spent three days on what could have been sorted in a less than a minute if we had met in person. Computers really make our lives more efficient, don't you think?
"Don't complain under the stars

about the lack of bright spots in you life."

Henrik Wergeland, Norwegian writer

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virumor
Posts: 3567

How to say Namárië

Post#7 » Sun Jan 02, 2005 6:10 pm

So basically we should pronounce "Namarië" like Cate Blanchett does in FOTR.

For once we can learn something from the movies!

Computers really make our lives more efficient, don't you think?

Well i could make a wav-file of Galadriel saying "Namarië" and send it to anyone who wants to know how it should be pronounced. Then we could use that pronunciation as a standard.

Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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Loss
Posts: 3691

How to say Namárië

Post#8 » Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:23 am

now that'z sorted how do you say my last name Lossëhelin or what my friends call me Lossë hehehehe

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grondmaster
Posts: 25451

How to say Namárië

Post#9 » Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:54 pm

I'd pronounce it to rhyme with 'Bossy Helen'; though it is probably closer to "loss-say-hell-in". Of course I know nothink, so I'm probably wrong. :tongueelf:
'Share and enjoy'

Morambar
Posts: 1022

How to say Namárië

Post#10 » Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:04 am

I admit I took only a cursory glance at the Quenya course; I'm not linguistically oriented, and I'm afraid it was too much for me, at least without intensive study. However, from that and the appendices it seems like the pronunciation would be closer to "los-seh-hel-in." Though, as I said, I really don't know WTF I'm talking about, and should probably be ignored. I'm really only chiming in in support of Virumors idea of a Namarie.wav if only for monoglots like me. ;)

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