Smaug, The One Ring & Saruman

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dwarflord
Posts: 66

Smaug, The One Ring & Saruman

Post#1 » Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:01 am

Some time ago I started a discussion with my friend, concerning Dragons, The One Ring and Saruman’s voice.

After reading J.R.R. Tolkien’s books I came to the coclusion that Dragons (be they dragon-worms or flying dragons) are Evil. They were bred for the first time by Morgoth, the ancient enemy. The first dragon was Glaurung. If there is anything to say about this foul creature it’s this: the beast was evil to the core. Bred by the Dark Lord himself there was no other choice. Many more dragons appear in the Great Battle, ending the First Age. They all fought for Evil and their Master.

This information comes of course from “The Silmarillion”.
My theory was challenged by my friend, who said that dragons are Neutral. They can of course be corrupted to Evil, by they are born Neutral.
As always, new questions stemmed from this brief difference in opinion.
I think, that Dragons are evil. Therefore, if Smaug were alive during The War of the Ring, he would surely be a dangerous ally to Sauron. That is if he could control the great beast. Smaug was the largest and smartest dragon alive, during the time of “The Hobbit” and he was the only one close enough to be caught in the war (I remind you, that Erebor, The Iron Mountains, Thranduil’s realm and Lorien were all assaulted while Gondor and Rohan fought in the south).
And now comes the question: If Sauron obtained the One Ring, could he force his will upon Smaug?

The One Ring, combined with the will of Sauron controlls all evil creatures. Therefore if I am right (and I like to think so), Smaug would fall into Sauron’s thralldom. But my friend argues that it’s more likely that Smaug would be controlled by Saruman and his voice. I do not think that is true, because if Sauron had the Ring, Saruman would cease to exist. However, with every victory of The West Saruman became weaker and his powers gradually passed on to Gandalf. In the peak of Saruman’s power there is a chance that he could controll Smaug to some extent. However we must remember, that Dragons love language riddles and breaking othersjust by talking to them. They feel lies and fear and they are creatures most difficult to “tame” with words.

So if I am right Smaug would devour the North and come down on Rohan and Gondor. If I am wrong and my friend is right, then Saruman’s greatest mistake was not challenging Smaug to a word duel and thus obtaining a powerful slave. This could help him greatly in his search for The One Ring. After all, he had been searching for it for a long time, before The War of the Ring started.


DwarfLord



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lord_aragorn86
Posts: 2241

Smaug, The One Ring & Saruman

Post#2 » Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:19 am

Nice post there, Dwarflord (without the vowels, of course). Its been a long time since I got to read such a post here. Well, you are right in some parts and wrong in some (according to my beliefs).

I feel that dragons are neutral. They can be corrupted but are mostly harmless if they are not nder the influence of anyone. They are just greedy and care for material pleasures (as Tolkien made us believe in The Hobbit.) But in The Silmarillion the darker side of dragons was revealed. But that was in the beginning. Since they were bred by Morgoth himself, they ought to be evil creatures but I guess that with the passing of time and Morgoth, the later offsprings wore down their evil and became materialistic. But of course, they were still evil (remember how Smaug burnt the dwarf city of Erebor killing almost every dwarf which inhabited Erebor.)

And after Sauron had got the One Ring, I don't think he would have much use of Smaug (if it were still alive by that time). If Sauron had acquired theRing, there would be nothing left to withstand his total victory over Middle-Earth and I don't think either Smag or Sauron would care abut the existence of each other as long as Smaug's gold was safe and Sauron's dominion over Middle-Earth was not threatened. Its true that Sauron could have influenced and gained control over Smaug but I don't believe he would have cared.

As for Saruman controlling Smaug, the idea is very preposterous. Saruman had no power over Smaug and could never have it. And he being very arrogant, wold not have cared about Smaug if he had gotten the Ring himself, though that would have led to Sauron winning the Ring since Isengard is no match for Mordor and Saruman wielding the Ring is no match for Sauron. Sauron could have easily controlled him and taken the Ring back.

But then Smaug was dead by the time The War of the Ring took place. So I guess these are all speculations!
I am nobody.....and nobody is perfect.......therefore I am perfect.

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dwarflord
Posts: 66

Smaug, The One Ring & Saruman

Post#3 » Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:20 am

Thanks, Lord Aragorn for replying

Continuing our discussion:
You wrote that Saruman wielding the Ring is no match for Sauron. I cannot agree. Saruman was still very powerful during The War of the Ring. If he had obtained it during or before The War, he was wise and powerful enough to take the place of Sauron. This is why Gandalf refused The Ring. He wolud have become another Dark Lord, once the Ring took hold of him. It would use his great power, it would work "through him". This is why I think, that Saruman with the aid of the Ring, would have overthrown Sauron. He probably would have robbed Sauron of his armies, with his will alone.

I quote: "The Council Of Elrond", page 261 (Harper Collins Publishers)
Elrond speaking: "It is too great for anyone to wield at will, save only those who have already a great power of their own. But for them it holds an even deadlier peril. The very desire of it corrupts the heart. Consider Saruman. If any of the Wise should with this ring overthrow the Lord of Mordor, using his own arts, he would then set himself on Sauron's throne, and yet another Dark Lord would appear."

Good point, saying that Sauron with the Ring and Smaug (if alive) would probably ignore each other if their interests didn't clash.

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lord_aragorn86
Posts: 2241

Smaug, The One Ring & Saruman

Post#4 » Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:53 am

Thanks, Lord Aragorn for replying

No problems. Glad to be of service.

You wrote that Saruman wielding the Ring is no match for Sauron. I cannot agree. Saruman was still very powerful during The War of the Ring. If he had obtained it during or before The War, he was wise and powerful enough to take the place of Sauron. He would have become another Dark Lord, once the Ring took hold of him. This is why I think, that Saruman with the aid of the Ring, would have overthrown Sauron. He probably would have robbed Sauron of his armies, with his will alone.

You see, Sauron cannot be overthrown unless the Ring is destroyed. The Ring would make Sarman believe that he could have all the power and pset Sauron sing it and then usurp his place as the Dark Lord, but this would be his folly. The Ring was made by Sauron into which he put his powers. The Ring follows Sauron's will and none other's. So even if Saruman led his army into Mordor and weilded the Ring in front of Sauron, what I suppose would happen is the the Ring would fall off Saruman's finger (you know how it can change its shape) and then be taken up by Sauron leading to death of Saruman for his insolence and whatever happens afterwards.

The Ring cannot be used against Sauron. It is His own weapon and only He can wield it. I agree that the Uruk Hai's are better than the Orcs of Mordor, but they are no match for the Ring wraiths. And the Nine Nazgul with Sauron can easily overpower Saruman. He's no match even with the Ring. He can't do anything to Sauron except maybe put a chink in his armour. Saruman would have lost all paws down!

Good point, saying that Sauron with the Ring and Smaug (if alive) would probably ignore each other if their interests didn't clash.

My turn to thank you!
I am nobody.....and nobody is perfect.......therefore I am perfect.

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gandalf-olorin
Posts: 481

Smaug, The One Ring & Saruman

Post#5 » Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:37 am

From what I can recall of the Silmarillion and what Tolkien stated elsewhere, you are correct in your estimation of dragons. I do not believe they were created as neutral in Tolkien's mythology. Anything "created" or malformed by Morgoth was for evil. So the purpose of dragons was to serve as instruments of his domination of everything and everyone. It is either in the Appendices of LOTR or elsewhere that it is shown how Gandalf deliberately arranged for the quest of Thorin and Company to Erebor in order to get rid of Smaug, as he clearly foresaw the use Sauron could make use of the dragon in the coming war. Another instance of Gandalf doing his job well!

It is undoubtedly Sauron who would have used Smaug, as Tolkien says this was the threat Gandalf was eliminating. Saruman, we might conjecture, could have used anything, including a dragon, had he become a "power." But such was not to be. In the scheme of Tolkien's universe, I think it would have been the Ring which would have made the dragon into a weapon of Sauron. So either Saruman would have had to get the Ring--as he tried--or he could not have kept such formidable "tool" in check. His voice was enough for the domination of many people, but I don't think it was meant to convince dragons.

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gwaihir
Posts: 206

Smaug, The One Ring & Saruman

Post#6 » Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:16 am

Wow! You guys are writing essays! I can't keep up to read them all!

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lord_aragorn86
Posts: 2241

Smaug, The One Ring & Saruman

Post#7 » Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:28 am

I do not believe they were created as neutral in Tolkien's mythology. Anything "created" or malformed by Morgoth was for evil.

Neither do I. But I said they became neutral as time progressed after the destruction of Morgoth. There was noone to control them and therefore their evil faded (if I may be allowed to use that word). More than likely it was dormant or not exhibited in its full force.
I am nobody.....and nobody is perfect.......therefore I am perfect.

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dwarflord
Posts: 66

Smaug, The One Ring & Saruman

Post#8 » Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:18 am

Lord Aragorn

You are mistaken in thinking that Saruman wielding the Ring would be less powerfull than the Nazgul. In "Unfinished Tales" we read:

"Such was still the power of the voive of Saruman that even the Lord of the Nazgul did not question what it said, whether it was false or short of the full truth"

This refers to the time when the Nazgul rode to Isengard to learn news from Saruman. He was that powerful without the ring, mind you. He decieved the Witchking of Angmar using his voice alone. Do you still think that he would'nt suceed in dominating them with his will, once he possesed the One Ring?

As for overthrowing Sauron with the aid of the Ring. I believe it's possible. One of the Wise, if powerful enough could suceed and become another Dark Lord. It is clearly stated by Elrond duriong The Council of Elrond. It is impossible to say, however, what would become of the ring, if its new master took Barad Dur for his own and eliminated Sauron beyond all chance of return.

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miruvor
Posts: 849

Smaug, The One Ring & Saruman

Post#9 » Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:34 pm

Neither do I. But I said they became neutral as time progressed after the destruction of Morgoth. There was noone to control them and therefore their evil faded (if I may be allowed to use that word). More than likely it was dormant or not exhibited in its full force.

They didn't become neutral. If i follow your reasoning, the Balrog of Moria wouldn't be evil anymore once he was awoken by the Dwarves, because his master Morgoth wasn't around anymore. Instead, the Balrog now was free ("Free!!! Balrog is free!!!" *happydance*) to continue his evil acts without any Master holding him back.

Smaug attacking the dwarves of Erebor, killing them and sending them fleeing, Smaug attacking and ransacking Esgaroth wasn't something a 'neutral' being would do. It was an evil act.

And of course, Switzerland doesn't invade Austria.

As for overthrowing Sauron with the aid of the Ring. I believe it's possible. One of the Wise, if powerful enough could suceed and become another Dark Lord. It is clearly stated by Elrond duriong The Council of Elrond. It is impossible to say, however, what would become of the ring, if its new master took Barad Dur for his own and eliminated Sauron beyond all chance of return.

Agreed there.

The Ring cannot be used against Sauron. It is His own weapon and only He can wield it. I agree that the Uruk Hai's are better than the Orcs of Mordor, but they are no match for the Ring wraiths. And the Nine Nazgul with Sauron can easily overpower Saruman. He's no match even with the Ring. He can't do anything to Sauron except maybe put a chink in his armour. Saruman would have lost all paws down!

The Ring can be used against Sauron. Like Dwrflord explained, anyone of the Wise could take up the Ring and use it to destroy Sauron. The victor would only later be turned into an equivalent of Sauron, because of the corrupting influence of the Ring.

This was Saruman's plan : find the One Ring and use it and his army of Uruk-Hai to topple Sauron. It would have worked. Your description of Saruman is very degrading for no reason.

It is undoubtedly Sauron who would have used Smaug, as Tolkien says this was the threat Gandalf was eliminating.

Yes, in UT it's mentioned Gandalf wanted to get rid of Smaug because he found out Sauron's original plan was to throw everything he had against Rivendell (using Smaug) and Lothlorien, instead of Gondor.

So if I am right Smaug would devour the North and come down on Rohan and Gondor. If I am wrong and my friend is right, then Saruman’s greatest mistake was not challenging Smaug to a word duel and thus obtaining a powerful slave. This could help him greatly in his search for The One Ring. After all, he had been searching for it for a long time, before The War of the Ring started.

Saruman would never take such risks and go "all or nothing", imo. As Sauron, he would try to make Smaug persuade in working for him by offering him all the gold and jewelry of Rohan/RIvendell/wherever.

Of course, Saruman might be more powerful than Smaug, who after all is only a run-off-the-mill fire drake and no Glaurung or Ancalagon the Black. Just use his greed against him and you can use him as a pet.

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grondmaster
Posts: 25451

Smaug, The One Ring & Saruman

Post#10 » Tue Jun 07, 2005 3:57 pm

Yes, in UT it's mentioned Gandalf wanted to get rid of Smaug because he found out Sauron's original plan was to throw everything he had against Rivendell (using Smaug) and Lothlorien, instead of Gondor.
If you would like to read more of Gandalf's reasoning and preparations toward getting rid of Smaug prior to and after his appearance on Bilbo's doorstep on that bright sunny morning in the Spring of 2941T.A. as told in The Hobbit, read 'The Quest for Erebor,' which is Section 3, Part III of Unfinished Tales - The Lost Lore of Middle Earth.
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