Strange creatures

User avatar
Lord Of All
Posts: 633

Strange creatures

Post#1 » Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:23 am

There is always questions asked as to where creatures like Ungolinat, Bombadil and the Watcher in the water came from. I now believe i may have the answer though not entirely sure.
When Melko's (proper name before he decended into Ea) music changed into discord and rose up to challenge Erus assigned theme it created some 'twisted parts' which were not intented by either Melko or eru. These parts therefore became present as abnormalities in arda as it was the music of the Ainur along with the flame imperishable that made Ea up. These were present therefore as creatures that arose before even the Ainur decended into arda and are part of arda itself.
Now when Melkor was set free from being chained in the halls of Mandos he had to Gain the allegiance with Ungoliant as she was not one of his servants.
Tom bombadil says to frodo that he was in Arda before the dark lord came from outside. As melko was the first of the Ainur to decend it follows that TB was there before them all.
This theory also applies to the strange creatures which gnawed away at the tunnels deep under Moria where Gandalf has to follow the Balrog of Morgoth. He says later to Aragorn that Sauron knows not of these creatures for they are older than he. Therefore these likely are also abnormalities in the music of the Ainur.
May interest some.

User avatar
miruvor
Posts: 849

Strange creatures

Post#2 » Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:41 am

When Melko's (proper name before he decended into Ea) music changed into discord and rose up to challenge Erus assigned theme it created some 'twisted parts' which were not intented by either Melko or eru.

Everything was intended by Eru.

Take this quote from the Ainulindalë :
And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.


About Ungoliant and Co, I figure they are independent Ainur who alleged neither to the Valar, neither to Melkor, but remained independent and did what they themselves prefered without answering to anyone.

User avatar
Amarië
Posts: 2785

Strange creatures

Post#3 » Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:09 am

Yup, Mir, that is what I was going to say too. Though in a more complicated way. There is nothing abnormal in the Music, Eru changed it once to give Melkor a chance to change his mind, and then changed again it to show Melkor who's the Boss. And that is the Music which created the universe.

The Ainur all added things to the Music without really knowing what they added, each of them could only see a small piece of the song. Only Eru knows what creatures and places the Music would give life to. There is nothing there which Eru didn't intend or wasn't aware about.
"Don't complain under the stars
about the lack of bright spots in you life."
Henrik Wergeland, Norwegian writer

User avatar
Lord Of All
Posts: 633

Strange creatures

Post#4 » Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:46 am

There is no sure way of nknowing how or what these cretaures are but this is my theory. Even if they were intended by Eru they were abnormalities within arda, as they arose from the discord of Melkor.
The theory that Tom bombadil was Tolkien himself or eru himself think are absurd so i suppose he could be one of the Ainur. But Tolkien himself says that TB is an enigma, so why not say he was an Ainur if it was so obvious? And enigmas must come from somewhere so to me this seems the most likely source.

User avatar
Vee
Posts: 2711

Strange creatures

Post#5 » Thu Feb 02, 2006 8:53 am

I understand (I think) what Lord of All is saying and I do, in part, agree that it is plausible.

Eru created everything but what is the point of asking the Ainur to contribute to the theme if the history of the world was already decided. We know that some things were kept from the Ainur when Eru showed them the vision of the World and maybe this is why. Maybe Eru didn't want to know everything that would happen even though he did. (???) There is a difference, however slight, between knowing and being aware of. Maybe Eru wanted some surprises and allowed Melkor's meddling to bear fruit. This doesn't mean that Melkor changed the theme, only that he was allowed to but Eru's face showed a progressive anger - he went from smiling to stern to terrible to behold. If he was aware of everything that was and would happen surely he would fully expect everything that Melkor did?

But now Illuvatar sat and hearkened, and for a great while it seemed good to him, for in the music there were no flaws. But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Iluvatar...


After that Iluvatar and Melkor struggled against each other's music. At first Iluvatar seemed almost condescending and he smiled as he started another theme. Melkor caused more discord, and Iluvatar became stern, then after more discord he became terrible to behold and after that the music ceased.

I think it possible that Iluvatar knew that there would be discord and that Melkor would be the instigator of it. The extent of the discord, however, may have been a bit of a surprise to Iluvatar otherwise why would he get so angry about it unless it was contrary to the original theme. Iluvatar used Melkor's discord and absorbed it into the theme and it may have been the catalyst for all the battles and wars which would shape the races of Middle-earth. I mean, what on earth is the point of creating something like Arda, using all the powers of the Ainur just to have something play out with no excitement, spontaneity or surprise?

In Letters Tolkien says:

The Ainur took part in the making of the world as 'sub-creators' in various degrees, after this fashion. They interpreted according to their powers, and completed in detail, the Design propounded to them by the One.


It's like getting a team together to develop new software. The Boss knows the design and knows the skills of his workforce so he allows them to input their own ideas. There is always the one looney, of course, who sticks a little bug in somewhere. But if Iluvatar knew his workforce, he knew what to expect even if he was not (or chose not to be) fully aware of what that would be.

As for all the other creatures - nothing was given life unless it was by Iluvatar so it is likely that all those dark creatures were Maiar who came to the world at the same time as the Valar, apart from Bombadil who was an enigma and maybe even Tolkien was not aware of what he was.




User avatar
miruvor
Posts: 849

Strange creatures

Post#6 » Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:11 am

Even if they were intended by Eru they were abnormalities within arda, as they arose from the discord of Melkor.

If the 'strange creatures' are Maiar, then they arose from Ilúvatar's mind and descended into Arda before, with or after the Valar but stayed independent from both them and Melkor (this is the case with Ungolianth).

Melkor's discord in the Music didn't suddenly trigger their existence. Melkor could not create living beings; he could only take existing forms and deform them according to his will : this is how he created Orcs, for instance (Dragons, Balrogs, etc. are Maiar allied to him).

This leads to the second possibility for the 'strange creatures' (like the creatures that delved tunnels deep under the Mines of Moria, and/or the Watcher in the Water) : they could be animals mutated/deformed by the malice that spread from Melkor's fortress of Utumno :
Now Melkor began the delving and building of a vast fortress, deep under Earth, beneath dark mountains where the beams of Illuin were cold and dim. That stronghold was named Utumno. And though the Valar knew naught of it as yet, nonetheless the evil of Melkor and the blight of his hatred flowed out thence, and the Spring of Arda was marred. Green things fell sick and rotted, and rivers were choked with weeds and slime, and fens were made, rank and poisonous, the breeding place of flies; and forests grew dark and perilous, the haunts of fear; and beasts became monsters of horn and ivory and dyed the earth with blood.

User avatar
gandalf-olorin
Posts: 481

Strange creatures

Post#7 » Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:55 am

Exactly, Mir. I always understood from Tolkien that these creatures were different kinds of beasts that had been warped by the influence of evil. I did not understand dragons as Maiar, but as some kind of creature that had been twisted by Morgoth. As well, the Watcher, the fell beasts, the steeds of the Nazgul, etc. were (according to my understanding) on the level of animals--some very large and powerful, some intelligent, but still only creatures of Arda. I thought that Tolkien had deliberately peopled his world with such beings. After all, ME is not your usual place, is it?

User avatar
cloveress
Posts: 2289

Strange creatures

Post#8 » Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:59 am

I thought that Tolkien had deliberately peopled his world with such beings


Not only Tolkien, apparently, Eru intended this too.

erebwen
Posts: 54

Strange creatures

Post#9 » Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:14 am

Exactly, Cloveress, Eru allowed such creatures to dwell on ME, just like he allowed Melkor to have his own music, although it was not in harmony with Eru's music.

User avatar
Lord Of All
Posts: 633

Strange creatures

Post#10 » Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:17 am

He allowed such creatures to dwell in arda but did he intend them from the very beginning of time, perhaps before the Ainur were created and he first thought of the idear of a theme of music.

Return to “General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest