The Elven Guild

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Thorin Oakenshield
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The Elven Guild

Post#151 » Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:58 am

**Puts on elven robe and disguise and walks in**

Aiya Eareandil Elenion Ancalima my friends!
The Old that is Strong does not Wither.

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grondmaster
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The Elven Guild

Post#152 » Sun Sep 20, 2009 3:31 pm

Grondy opens the door, peeks in, smiles, waves to his Elven friends, and leaves.
'Share and enjoy'

gwindor
Posts: 313

The Elven Guild

Post#153 » Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:06 am

Mae govannen
Despite being an Elf, I haven't been with this forum yet.

I've been reading your posts regarding the Elf/Orc origins, and have developed a theory.
Since Melkor can't create life, he must have got the material for Orcs from somewhere, and it was presumably the Elves since they were the only ones around originally.

HOWEVER, I can't see the Eldar race being physically twisted into the likes of Goblins/Orcs. The only conclusion I see is that Melkor(being an ex Vala, Ainur - ie pretty smart at least) was some sort of early geneticist who used Elvish DNA from those he captured. Since we can do this now(almost) it stands to reason that those with Godlike powers can do much more.

Please feel free to discuss

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Thorin Oakenshield
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The Elven Guild

Post#154 » Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:41 am

Gwindor, In The Silmarillion, it is said that Melkor, by slow arts of cruelty made the orcs out of elves he captured.

The Old that is Strong does not Wither.

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grondmaster
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The Elven Guild

Post#155 » Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:47 pm

The actual wording of Thorin's above paraphrase are highlighted by me in bold below.
Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning: so say the wise. And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. This it may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Ilúvatar. - from 'Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor', Chapter 3 of the 'Quenta Silmarillion' in The Silmarillion. (Page 47 in the 2002 Del Rey/Ballantine paperback edition.)
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virumor
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The Elven Guild

Post#156 » Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:32 am

"It is held true by the wise of Eresseä" hence just another theory.
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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grondmaster
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The Elven Guild

Post#157 » Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:42 pm

Sure, just another theory like Arien and Tilion guide and steer the Sun and Moon respectively around Arda. :tongueelf:
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virumor
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The Elven Guild

Post#158 » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:33 am

Bit of a non sequitur. That knowledge came from the Valar, obviously, and was imparted to the Eldar. The Valar had no knowledge about the happenings in Utumno. Hence, a theory.
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

gwindor
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The Elven Guild

Post#159 » Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:07 am

Having read the Silmarillion a number of times I'm well familiar with the passage quoted by Thorin and Grondmaster.
However, being an Elf( Quendi, Eldar, Avari etc)is more than just being tall, grey-eyed and such.
The thing about Elves is they are bound to world (Arda) by their Spirit or Fea in the Elvish, hence Feanor etc. So even when they die/discorporate they go to the Halls of Mandos and then are reborn/reincarnated as Elves, whether in Aman or elswhere in Arda. So when being tortured etc to such a degree all they need do is discorporate. If I was being turned into an Orc by "slow arts of cruelty" I certainly wouldn't survive the experience. If indeed as Thorin and Grondy imply then all Orcs have the spirit of Elves within them. Although it might explain their suicidal tactics - die an ugly Orc and wake up in the Blessed Realm? - don't quite buy that.
So it really has to be their bodies that were corrupted, otherwise we'll have too many contradictions.
Still, good to have such Elf-scholars in the Elven Guild, who happen to be...er, Dwarves

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grondmaster
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The Elven Guild

Post#160 » Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:17 pm

Mayhaps Melkor took and filled each newly spiritless corrupted Elven body with a swarm of fire ants, tiger wasps, or African bees whose ferocious nature animated the Orc with its antisocial nature. Or possibly he just successfully transplanted the living brain of a Tasmanian Devil into the spiritless corrupted Elven body after its spirit fled. :elfbiggrin:
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