And the log for this class is as follows:
[21:06] What do we know about the Istari?
[21:07] They are Maiar
[21:07] They were sent by the Valar in TA1000 to help counter the threat of Sauron
[21:07] come to assist the peoples of middle earth in the threat of sauron
[21:07] They were more than likely Maiar
[21:08] they had great powers of mind and hand
[21:08] Hmm...that's not a fact?
[21:08] in what form did they come?
[21:08] human forn
[21:08] as old Men
[21:08] old men
[21:08] They were forbidden to match Sauron with power for power
[21:08] any other conditions?
[21:08] so they wouldn't get big heads
[21:09] They were not to rule/dominate, just guide
[21:09] but Saruman did
[21:09] why do you suppose they came as old men?
[21:09] yes he did, but gandalf did not and neither did Radagast
[21:09] to inspire trust?
[21:09] To remind themselves of their limitations
[21:09] so they weren't threatening
[21:09] and appear wise
[21:09] * Joins: Samwisegamgee (firstname.lastname@example.org)
[21:09] * Barliman sets mode: +v Samwisegamgee
[21:10] all very good points
[21:10] because they would appear as wise old men and not intimidate others
[21:10] or be too threatening
[21:10] rioght...if they looked like young little whipper snappers no one would think they were so wise
[21:11] good point
[21:11] people listen to wise old men, not young ones
[21:11] How did Saruman stray?
[21:12] He wanted to rule...wanted the power of the Ring
[21:12] he studied Sauron too hard
[21:12] He was too wise
[21:12] he went to the east and studied too much of Sauron's power
[21:13] Sauron beguiled him through the Palantir
[21:13] he coveted the ring and power for himself
[21:13] but he already come to desire the ring before then, right? or am I mistaken?
[21:13] before the palantir, you mean>
[21:13] all of these would indicate that he was breaking the rule frobidding him from matching Sauron's power with power.
[21:14] He'd been searching for it for a long time
[21:14] yes, that is why he used it, because of his desire for the ring
[21:14] and Saruman made a ring of his own, which I just discovered last night
[21:14] Another fallen maiar of Aule
[21:14] now that I did not know Grondy.
[21:14] really Grondy??
[21:14] Too attached to earthly things
[21:14] was he of aule?
[21:14] really grondy? I did not see that
[21:15] weren't all the Maiar part of the Aule?
[21:15] Both he and Sauron were Aule's maiar
[21:15] i didn'
[21:15] think so
[21:15] duh, nevermind
[21:15] what other instruction for the Valar did Saruman chose not to heed?
[21:16] Interfer with the affairs of others
[21:16] yes, but he went further than just interference
[21:16] very good val, i was struggleing with that one.
[21:16] Tried to rule them
[21:17] Also created half orcs
[21:17] why was Saruman the leader of the White Council?
[21:17] Because he was Head of the Istari
[21:18] because he was the most powerful and wisest of the Istari
[21:18] He would have been seen as being the wisest of the wise
[21:18] because he was of a higher orde
[21:18] because he was the eldest wizard
[21:18] Was he not the first of the Istari, the eldar?
[21:18] Although Galadriel wanted Gandalf to lead council
[21:19] very good point, Val
[21:19] and he resented that
[21:19] I thought I read somewhere that olorin was considered wisest of all maiar
[21:19] the first sing of his corruption.
[21:19] You did, prog
[21:19] i read that too. aparently that's not what everyone else thought.
[21:19] Few would have known that in ME though
[21:19] which brings us to the Elven rings. Who were the original holders of the rings
[21:20] not not many would have associated Olorin with gandalf
[21:20] Gil galad, Cirdan, Galadriel
[21:20] Saruman probably told that to everyone
[21:20] Cirdan, galdriel Gilgald
[21:20] Gil Galad
[21:20] i don't think so grondmaster. he might have not wanted people to know.
[21:20] we know that Galadriel still holds her ring in LOTR, who have possession of the other 2?
[21:20] elrond and gandalf
[21:20] Gil-gads went to elrond and Cirdan's went to gandalf
[21:21] Gandalf and Elrond
[21:21] Why would Cirdan give his ring to a wizard?
[21:21] I can't seem to type
[21:21] Because it was wasted in the havens
[21:21] because he knew where gandalf came from
[21:21] and what was in store for gandalf
[21:21] He believed it would aid him in inspiring people
[21:21] good point val, hadn't thought of that
[21:21] He knew Gandalf had a lot more use for it
[21:22] seems kind of fortuous that Gandalf had the ring when most needed, doesn't it?
[21:22] Kindling a fire in peoples hearts so to speak
[21:22] i like that prog
[21:22] so do i
[21:22] good point PProg
[21:23] So did the ring keep Gandalf on track when the others couldn't
[21:23] that is a very good question, val
[21:23] hmmm, i wondered that tooo Valedhelgwath last night
[21:23] the others used the ring to guard what they had, gandalf used his to its full power
[21:23] I always thought it was Gandalf's nature but the ring might have had a part
[21:23] It seems Cirdan KNEW that the ring would fare best in Gandalfs hands
[21:24] i did too, until last night val
[21:24] yes it does seem like that.
[21:24] I agree Prog
[21:24] yes i think you are correct Prog
[21:24] Then why Gandalf and not saruman?#
[21:25] cirdan might have mistrusted saurman as galadriel did
[21:25] Cirdan saw something in Gandalf
[21:25] Saruman was already showing signs of disobediance, so to speak
[21:25] perhaps cirdan, suspected saurman
[21:25] yes Mell
[21:25] He'd never met any of them before... He must have seen something in Gandalf
[21:25] Cirdan saw farther into the future of ME
[21:25] wouldn't he have met them if he was in the Council?
[21:25] that's it grondy
[21:26] yes i agree grondy
[21:26] I agree with you Grondy
[21:26] Did he give the ring when he first met Gandalf, or later?
[21:26] was cirdan in the council? i don't remember
[21:26] Cirdan was on the council
[21:26] I believe it waas right away
[21:26] later, before he went to the havens
[21:26] i don't think it said, val, but i would think when he first met him
[21:26] When Gandalf first came east over the sea
[21:27] I thought it was on first meeting him, must admit
[21:27] I don't think Saruman could hide his nature from Cirdan.
[21:27] i agree with you on that
[21:27] is when the red ring changed hands
[21:27] Maybe didn't trust Aule's servants
[21:27] did it ever specify whos servent gandalf was
[21:27] Cirdan may have seen Gandalf as the only hope for Middle Earth.
[21:28] Exactly...but even if Saruman showed no outward signs of his potential for treachery, perhaps Cirdan could sense something deeper
[21:28] Radagast certainly did not garner much respect.
[21:28] Gandalf was a servant of Lorien and Nienna but came on the bidding of Manwe
[21:28] i see
[21:29] Radagast was only sent because Yavanna requested saruman take him
[21:29] and the blue dudes weren't special enough to earn more than a mention
[21:29] radagast was not worried about elves and humans but about nature
[21:29] The red rings main power is to instill HOPE
[21:29] They went into the East and the South
[21:29] east and south are lands we don't hear much about
[21:30] It seems strange that the 5 wizards were sent to contest the power of Sauron, but only Gandalf proved worthy
[21:30] Cirdan knew Gandalf would need that
[21:30] i think it is because he had the ring
[21:30] Gandalf didn't want the task either because he was afraid of sauron
[21:30] He must have felt almost abandoned and discouraged at times.
[21:31] Well Saruman surely wasn't worthy...but perhaps the others did more than we know...behind the scenes
[21:31] that's what it think prog
[21:31] Radagast helped prevent the spread of evil through mirkwood
[21:32] Is it possible that Sarumon wanted the ring so Sauron could be overthrown, that this was the solution he sought.
[21:32] yes and Radagast also ended up saving gandalf's life
[21:32] after unwittingly putting his life in danger.
[21:32] then why would he not tell it to the council?
[21:32] Hmmm...yes but for his own purposes
[21:32] maybe in the beginning Nel
[21:32] I believe that was his intention at the start
[21:33] It wasn't the ring that corrupted him though. He never saw it
[21:33] so was it the ring that corrupted him or his own power
[21:33] his own power
[21:33] I think Saruman had an innate desire to dominate
[21:33] the palantir?
[21:34] i think his own power corrupted him before the palantir
[21:34] The palantir was the final straw
[21:34] yes, exactly.
[21:34] absolute power corrupts absolutely
[21:34] he that studies evil is open to be curupted by evil
[21:34] that certaintly seems to be a common theme. maybe that is what happened to sauron
[21:34] very good point grondy
[21:35] his studies took him down a dark path
[21:35] he was trying to see what made Sauron tick
[21:35] Like a criminal profiler becoming a serial killer
[21:35] not that that happens
[21:35] Was it necessary for Gandalf to die in Moria?
[21:35] good analogy prog
[21:36] He needed to shed the earthly constraints and return with his full power
[21:36] As Gandalf the White, he was Olorin
[21:36] good point val
[21:36] The thought has occured to me that Gandalf ALLOWED himself to fall
[21:36] that is interesting prog.
[21:37] did he know then that if the quest was to succeed that he had to die?
[21:37] it's possible I suppose
[21:37] i don't think so
[21:37] Aragorn kept hinting at such
[21:37] He knew he wasn't going to die. He was just burning off his earthly bonds
[21:38] how do you mean Grondy?
[21:38] i think it occured to him when they were in moria. remember, he didn't know at the beginning they were going through moria
[21:38] so he was aware that he would come back as Gandalf the White?
[21:38] good point Sam
[21:38] Or perhaps he felt that Frodo was depending too much on him
[21:38] I think so. He knew destruction of his flesh would not be the end
[21:39] His flesh was limiting his powers
[21:39] I agree Val
[21:39] that is why sauron was so powerful because he lost his body when he was in numenor
[21:39] being incarnate
[21:40] excellant point, Sam
[21:40] interesting Sam
[21:40] I think the Valar clothed them in flesh to limit their power, to show them what it was like to be mortal etc
[21:40] but it seems that Sauron's power was linked to the Ring
[21:40] that is a very good point Val
[21:40] that is true too nell
[21:40] that is a good point val
[21:41] Gandalf had learneed this lesson and now needed his full abilities
[21:41] by saurons choice his power was linked to the ring
[21:41] Sauron put part of himself into the Ring
[21:41] but why? if i were him, i wouldn't, because then i could be destroyed.
[21:41] Dumb move on Sauron's part really
[21:42] So that he could dominate others...the One Ring gave him dominion over all those who posessed rings of power
[21:42] He was arrogant and felt so powerful that he was omnipotent
[21:42] yes exactly
[21:42] it was easier than fighting wars
[21:42] except he tied that power to a little object that could be lost
[21:42] but it backfired
[21:42] Maybe he forsaw his doom too in Numenor. He survived that because oif the ring
[21:43] interesting point, val
[21:43] Sort of like a liche
[21:43] While the ring is around he can never die, and no one is going to want to destroy it
[21:43] so he thought
[21:44] so he felt he needed the ring to change what he forsaw?
[21:44] in the end, no one DID destroy it...it was an accident
[21:44] that's true
[21:44] very true
[21:45] Maybe the craving for the ring was a fail safe he put into it to prevent it being destroyed
[21:45] Eru' s invisible ellbo
[21:45] That is a very good point. Sauron was probably quite confident that no one could have the willpower to destroy the ring.
[21:45] perhaps in the end No one COULD have destroyed it...not even Tom Bombadil...
[21:45] A very good failsafe, Val
[21:45] so we are very lucky that gollum fell into the Crack of Doom