Assignment 7

Samwisegamgee
Posts: 607

Assignment 7

Post#1 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am



5) Why do you suppose Angrist broke when Beren attempted to cut a second silmaril from Morgoth's crown?


I think that it broke because Beren took the knife from Curufin. And Curufin was one of the sons of Feanor and so bound by the oath. The one silmaril was what Beren had come to get as Luthien's bride price, but the second silmaril he had no need for.

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valedhelgwath
Posts: 4233

Assignment 7

Post#2 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

I hadn't really thought about the knife being bound to the oath because it once belonged to Curufin, Samwise, but I agree with what you say about Beren having no need for a second Silmaril.

I think that unlike so many others who coverted the Silmarils, Beren's only interest in them was because he had been quested to retrieve one in order to win Luthien's hand. He was working outside of the Curse of the Noldor because in a way he was working on a higher cause that demanded he get a Silmaril (unlike Thingol who had no need to ask for one, but who did ask).

There are definetly higher powers at work in the relationship between Beren and Luthien, and those same powers are working to help Beren win Luthien's hand. Because he has to gain one Silmaril they enable him to do so. When he decides to take a second, however, things change. Had he succeeded (for instance, by taking Morgoth's crown) he would be dooming himself to the fate and curses placed on the Silmarils because he was taking them by his own choice.

I think the knife breaking was no accident. A higher power was at work there, and the fact that the broken shard disturbed Morgoth in his sleep was an added warning to Beren that he must leave with just one gem. Beren and Luthien's fate together are very important to later events in the history of Middle earth, and are in my opinion, possibly even (going back to the Great Music of the Ainur) a theme woven by Eru himself when introducing tunes to quell the bitter music being composed by Melkor.

Samwisegamgee
Posts: 607

Assignment 7

Post#3 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

I always thought that Beren was working inside the oath of Feanor by claiming a Silmaril even if for Thingol, because what motivated Thingol to ask for the Silmarill was Beren. But that is a circular arguement I suppose...


2) What did Melian mean when she said to Thingol, "...it is ill for you, whether Beren fail in his errand, or achieve it. For you have doomed either your daughter, or yourself. And now is Doriath drawn within the fate of a mightier realm."


I think that Melian is saying that the defences put on Doriath cannot defend Doriath from the future. The Oath of Feanor will doom Thingol and Luthien whether Beren fails or not. Doriath can no longer stay aloof, it must now play its part in the troubles of the world.

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grondmaster
Posts: 25451

Assignment 7

Post#4 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

2) What did Melian mean when she said to Thingol, "...it is ill for you, whether Beren fail in his errand, or achieve it. For you have doomed either your daughter, or yourself. And now is Doriath drawn within the fate of a mightier realm."
If Beren succeeds Thingol will bear the wrath of the sons of Feanor which will lead, as it actually happened, to the downfall of Doriath. Had Beren failed and been killed, Luthien would have hated her father for setting up such a difficult challenge; she would have withered away on some mound pining for her lost lover. At least that was my take on the story.
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THINGOL77
Posts: 157

Assignment 7

Post#5 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

1) Why was Beren able to pass through the Girdle of Melian, and why did both he and Luthien fall in love with each other at first sight?


because since the begining she said that her power was going to defend them of every evil ,and that no one should pass trough without the king or the queen´s consentement....,unless a bigger strenght impulsed that one,and not even melian´s power was going to restrain him/her....

What did Melian mean when she said to Thingol, "...it is ill for you, whether Beren fail in his errand, or achieve it. For you have doomed either your daughter, or yourself. And now is Doriath drawn within the fate of a mightier realm."


well i agree with grondy :thumbup: ,no more to say...

3) Further to Finrod's ability to read minds, discussed in the previous assignment, here Finrod manages to disguise his party as Orcs, and later to contest Sauron with a battle of "songs of power". Is he a wizard of some sort?


i think that was part of the things they learned overseas there in valinor....though finrod succeded in their knowledge....

4) What is the nature of the creatures,
a) Huan the Wolfhound
b) Draugluin
c) Carcharoth
d) Thuringwethil


i got canfused about this question....huan a hound...,draugluin a lycantrop.....,carcharoth the greatest and the most evil wolf ,and thuringwethil was a giant bat...(or vampire,because i think he had transmutation powers also)

6) Why were Beren and Luthien allowed to leave the Halls of Mandos after their deaths? How does the choice Luthien was given relate to the choice of Elrond, Elros, and Arwen in LotR


i think they were allowed to leave because of luthien and beren´s love, because even mandos felt touched about it,and i think that the lesson is that eru knew everything since the begining, so he allowed her to choose the way she wanted to be judged.....,and that way the rest of their kin was allowed to choose the breed they wanted to(sorry ,i do not know if breed is correct to be aplied to their species...,if it is,pls tell me,otherwise pls correct me....thnx guys)

¿what happened here????,anybody knows????why is my post this way????,can it be corrected?????pls???

[Edited on 6/2/2003 by THINGOL77]

(Plastic says: You didn't close your quotes properly Thingol mate, the opening "quote" (yeah I know it should be in square brackets but..) should be closed with "/quote" not just "quote" again, okay? :) )nn[Edited on 6/2/2003 by PlasticSquirrel]

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Tinúviel
Posts: 510

Assignment 7

Post#6 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

1) Why was Beren able to pass through the Girdle of Melian, and why did both he and Luthien fall in love with each other at first sight?

Basically, it was fate, as though the story of Beren and Luthien were woven into the music of Illuvatar.
And he passed throught the mazes that Melian wove about the kingdom of Thingol, even as she had foretold; for a great doom lay upon him.

But as she looked on him, doom fell upon her, and she loved him.

Also I think that Beren was like a lost soul wandering through the wilderness, desperate and full of grief. Which is why he was able to pass through the Girlde of Melian (a force which caused trespassers to become bewildered and confused), because it was not unlike to the rest of his wanderings.

2) What did Melian mean when she said to Thingol, "...it is ill for you, whether Beren fail in his errand, or achieve it. For you have doomed either your daughter, or yourself. And now is Doriath drawn within the fate of a mightier realm."

If Beren were to fail, Luthien's spirit would fade with sorrow and she would die from grief over her lost lover. If Beren were to succeed, Thingol would fall under the wrath of the sons of Feanor, bound by their oath. At the mere request of Thingol for Beren to bring him a Silmaril, whether he fail or not, Doriath is now drawn within the fate of the Noldor; such is the dreadful power of the Oath of Feanor and the Curse of Mandos.

6) Why were Beren and Luthien allowed to leave the Halls of Mandos after their deaths? How does the choice Luthien was given relate to the choice of Elrond, Elros, and Arwen in LotR?

Mandos was so moved by Luthien's grief and her song of the sorrows of the Two Kindreds, which in the case of Luthien and Beren hit the hardest as the troubles of both races were strongly intertwined in their love; that he pitied them and so gave Luthien the choice granted by Illuvatar himself, like the choice given to Elrond, Elros and Arwen: whether to be Elf or human. But her choice relates more closely to Arwen's because Elrond and Elros were half-elves, which was not allowed by Illuvatar therefore they had to choose one race or the other, but Arwen and Luthien were pure Elves, but were allowed to choose because of their love for a human so that they may never be parted from the one they loved.

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grondmaster
Posts: 25451

Assignment 7

Post#7 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

... but Arwen and Luthien were pure Elves,...
Except Arwen was not pure Elf: Elrond her father was half-elven (I think someone recently figured out that he was more like 9/16 elven which would make Arwen something like 25/32 elven) but your point is well taken anyway.
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valedhelgwath
Posts: 4233

Assignment 7

Post#8 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

I always thought that Beren was working inside the oath of Feanor by claiming a Silmaril even if for Thingol, because what motivated Thingol to ask for the Silmarill was Beren. But that is a circular arguement I suppose...
Yes, Beren would have been subject to the Oath of Feanor, Samwise, because that involved anyone who kept a Silmaril from the Feanor or his sons. Hence the trouble he had with Celegorm and Curufin.

Do not confuse the Oath with the Curse of the Noldor though. Although the Curse of the Noldor came about because of the Kin-Slaying and the defiance shown to the Valar, it was all tied up with the fate of the Silmarils. I think in a way Mandos's Doom seemed to spread to anyone who willingly went out of their way to covert a Silmaril. In this Thingol was found guilty, and thus d@mned himself. Beren, however, was after a Silmaril as a means to an end, and therefore innocent of this Doom until he tried to take a second.
2) What did Melian mean when she said to Thingol, "...it is ill for you, whether Beren fail in his errand, or achieve it. For you have doomed either your daughter, or yourself. And now is Doriath drawn within the fate of a mightier realm."
All of your answers to this are as I see them. Either Luthien will die of grief if Beren fails, or Thingol will invoke the wrath of the sons of Feanor if Beren succeeds. Who do you suppose the Mightier realm is that Melian refers to? It seems strange she would call the Noldor this unless she is calling them it to emphasise to Thingol just how great a problem he has involved himself in.
1) Why was Beren able to pass through the Girdle of Melian, and why did both he and Luthien fall in love with each other at first sight?
Yes, it is fate. I believe Beren is one of the themes Eru wove into the Great Music to thwart Melkor. Melian had even seen this when she first wove the Girdle. I like your idea of Beren lost in his wonderings though, Arwen. If Eru is controlling Beren through a theme of music, he perhaps cannot just pick him up and place him where he wants him etc, he maybe has to do things subtly (even though he is God). Maybe the terrible misfotunes Beren had suffered were instigated by Eru just as a means to an end, the task being to get Beren through the Girdle.
6) Why were Beren and Luthien allowed to leave the Halls of Mandos after their deaths?
If Beren was a theme woven by Eru, we must ask to what purpose? It wasn't just to steal a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown, even though it did give the Free People of Beleriand hope when they really needed it.

A look at the family trees in the back of the book will show you just how important this union was to the future of Middle Earth, even though it was not mentioned in this chapter. When Luthien chose the life of a Mortal, it was said to her that her line would never die. A look at the family tree shows the descendants of this union to be Elrond as well as all of the Kings of Numenor, Arnor and the Chieftains of the Rangers of the North. A very important line, instrumental in Middle Earths future struggles against Sauron.
How does the choice Luthien was given relate to the choice of Elrond, Elros, and Arwen in LotR?
Luthien, through love for Beren, sacrificed her immortality. Had she not done this, and had married an Elf and had children, those children would have been immortal. I think this is why Elrond, Elros and Arwen were all given the choice themselves. Taking away the Gift of Man was not in Mandos's power so the choice fell on the individual. Even though Elrond chose the Elven path, his choice could not deny the Gift of Man to Arwen either, because if Elrond had chosen the Path of Men, the Gift would have been hers.

The choice does not seem to have been given to Elros's line. Once he chose to accept the Gift of Men, that seems have been it for his descendants too, even though many of them yearned for immortality. To me, this indicates that the Gift of Man superceeds Elven immortality on earth, because once accepted it seems to be the fate of your children too.
4) What is the nature of the creatures,
a) Huan the Wolfhound
b) Draugluin
c) Carcharoth
d) Thuringwethil
What I was trying to highlight here, Thingol, is what are the true natures of these creatures. There is no way for example that Huan is just a hound. Anyone have any ideas?

Is everyone happy with other aspects of this chapter, or have any other points they wish to share about it?

MadWannabe
Posts: 170

Assignment 7

Post#9 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Heh...I know I am not given the go-ahead to post anything yet but please read:

Quote
2) What did Melian mean when she said to Thingol, "...it is ill for you, whether Beren fail in his errand, or achieve it. For you have doomed either your daughter, or yourself. And now is Doriath drawn within the fate of a mightier realm."
I figured that what she meant was that if Beren achieves it, it bode the end of Thingol as can be seen when Thingol was killed by the dwarves he hired to help make the necklace Naug-sumthing....and if Beren fails it, Luthien will die as Luthien was with Beren at that time. I don't think she meant Luthien wioll die of grief but instead be captured by Morgoth. This is what I think as Melian was said to have the power of foresight...so she should be a ble to see roughly what will happen right? And what is meant was that the interference with Morgoth will make him turn his eye to them and attempt to crush them for stealing the silmaril.

3) Further to Finrod's ability to read minds, discussed in the previous assignment, here Finrod manages to disguise his party as Orcs, and later to contest Sauron with a battle of "songs of power". Is he a wizard of some sort?
I think I read somewhere that he was taught in Valinor about learning th songs of power.

4) What is the nature of the creatures,
a) Huan the Wolfhound
b) Draugluin
c) Carcharoth
d) Thuringwethil
Well to this question, I can only answer that Huan was a celestial hound from Valinor, and came together with the elves. He was given 3 times to speak and he spoke to help Luthien(that is one) and before he died(that is the third), I forgot when was the second time he spoke....


MadWannabe
Posts: 170

Assignment 7

Post#10 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

err...I forget to add that Huan was prophesised to die in a batlle with the greatest wolf in the world, which is Carcharoth

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