Assignment 12

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Elfstone
Posts: 1502

Assignment 12

Post#1 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Well as I close in on my (gasp) 200th post, there's no better place to start than in my favorite thread, the one and only The Silmarillion reading group here at PT!

In regards to question #6, Cirdan gave up Narya so readily to Mithrandir because Cirdan being by far one of the wisest Elves ever to live, was the only one who knew at first who the Istari were, where they came from, and why they had been sent. Cirdan revealed this information to Elrond and Galadriel only. Here is a quote from page 365 where Cirdan gives Mithrandir Narya;
Take now this Ring, for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is The Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill.
Gandalf was the closest in counsel with Elrond, and the Elves, and I think this fact along with Cirdan’s incredible powers of perception (since he was obviously aware of the tasks placed before Gandalf, and since he probably also perceived that something was amiss with Curunir) were the reasons that Cirdan entrusted the ring to Gandalf, and not to Saurman. One other thing I would like to add (and I realize this might be jumping the gun, but since I’m just starting to read UT for the first time, I’ll mention this as well) is a short quote from page 406 in Unfinished Tales;
But Cirdan from their first meeting at the Grey Havens divined in him the greatest spirit and the wisest; and he welcomed him with reverence, and he gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red.


Galadriel I think wanted Gandalf to be the head of the White Council essentially for alot of the same reasons that Cirdan had entrusted Gandalf to the safekeeping of Narya. Again, it was because Gandalf was the closest in council with Elrond and the rest of the Elves, because he was the most vigilant, and because I believe that Galadriel being as powerful as she was, also perceived that Gandalf was the greater and wiser spirit, and that he had been sent with the higher purpose. I also think it very likely that after a while, she also perceived that something was amiss with Saurman, although due to his power, he did a good job of hiding his true intentions even from the wisest for a long time.
:elf:

"I would have the Ring-bearer bring the crown to me, and let Mithrandir set it upon my head, if he will; for he has been the mover of all that has been accomplished, and this is his victory." Elessar

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valedhelgwath
Posts: 4233

Assignment 12

Post#2 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Nice answer, Elfstone. What I was actually wondering myself when I wrote the question, was whether Cirdan and Galadriel actually recognised Gandalf from before when he was Olorin? Manwe chose Olorin, among other reasons, because he had spent so much time with the elves whom he loved so much. He spent a lot of time in Lorien, but it does not say anywhere that he had not been to Middle Earth prior to becoming and Istari. Galadriel would almost certainly have met him at some stage in Valinor, and Cirdan may well have done in Beleriand.

MadWannabe
Posts: 170

Assignment 12

Post#3 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

As for question 6, I totally agree with Elfstone and Val, however I prefered to think of it this way:
The wise recognise the wise, the good recognised the good. In other words they recognised their kind or better put, people of the same nature as them. Therefore Cirdan was able to "divine" Olorin from Gandalf. And even if they did meet Gandalf in Valinor, Gandalf and that time did not take any visible form among them. (I think...) and therefore, it requires both wisdom and perception on them to be able to know Olorin was Gandalf.

Beleg_Strongbow
Posts: 147

Assignment 12

Post#4 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

I have an answer for #3. I think it was because, when the king left, he left the steward in charge until he came back. The king never came back, so the line of stewards just kept on holding their place. :) Eventually Aragorn came back, but only after many years. At least, that's what I always thought!

nn[Edited on 14/5/2003 by Beleg_Strongbow]

MadWannabe
Posts: 170

Assignment 12

Post#5 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Very true, Beleg. I kinda forgot about that too. The last King of Gondor was Earnur and he had no wife and thus no children as he reveled in combat and other manly stuff before he went to get killed by the witch-king. Therefore the steward ruled in his name but not in his place as Earnur did not exactly leave a kin.

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valedhelgwath
Posts: 4233

Assignment 12

Post#6 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Hi Beleg, welcome both to Planet Tolkien and to our Discussion group here.

You answer to question 3 is correct in that the Steward was left in charge in the King's absence until he returned. This is a tradition I believe first started during the reign of Isildur when it was the Steward's duty to pass on a scroll, known as the "Tradition of Isildur", an item containing the secrets of the realm and other information a new King would need. This would be passed on before the new king was crowned, and the duty was known only to the King and his Steward.

In this way, the Steward became responsible for the realm in the King's absence, whether the king be dead or away on some business (eg. war). It was thus held that the Steward held all the rights and duties of the King "until the Great King returns". In this later statement, the Stewards judged the words to mean someone who was an heir of Elendil.

Mardil, who became the first Ruling Steward, judged that as the line of stewards was also hereditory, this rule in the King's stead should also continue until the true heir returned. As no true heir was known to exist at that time, it was deemed unlikely to ever happen, but the Stewards, through tradition, never sat on the throne or called themselves Kings.

So that is a brief history of how Gondor came to be ruled by Stewards. I think had things occurred differently, however, and the last king, Earnur, had died in the palace, the succession may have been different. Because Earnur disappeared, however, and many thought he was being held captive by the Witchking, they could not crown someone else as king until his death was confirmed. By then, however, the Stewards were in power and any bid for succession would cause strife among the Dunedain in determining who should be rightfully King.

MadWannabe
Posts: 170

Assignment 12

Post#7 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

As for question 6, I guess that you may be wrong to say that Sauron has no part in its making. As it can be assumed that Celebrimbor learned or may have been taught some of his craft of rings by Sauron himself. Even if he is not taught by Sauron himself, He may have been influenced or taught by his comrades who are under the apprenticeship of Sauron. So therefore, Celebrimbor works, too have Saurons craft of rings in it. You can call it the "style" of making it. And therefore a part of Sauron's work in it. And Since Sauron made his rings to control all the other rings, which he had a part in making, I guess it is possible that the three rings could be controlled.

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valedhelgwath
Posts: 4233

Assignment 12

Post#8 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

I assume you are refering to question 1, MadWannabe.

That is how I interpreted things too. The Three Elven Rings were forged by Celebrimbor alone, but he would have been using technics taught to him by Sauron. These rings are obviously not normal rings and can be assumed to require complex spells/rituals etc in their making. I'm guessing some of these spells/rituals or whatever else they are, may be somewhat beyond Celebrimbor's own understanding to fully comprehend.

I think he was well enough versed by Sauron to successfully follow the procedure of forging a ring, but maybe did not fully understand the full potential of what he was doing. To better understand what I am trying to explain, compare the forging of the rings with the modern day use of a PC. You can run your PC, instal programs and connect to the Net etc, just as Celebrimbor could forge the rings, but most people are unable to then fully understand what is occuring within the programming of their PC. Just as there is potential for Mr Bill Gates to instal controlling programs withing any Microsoft product, there was the danger Sauron had cleverly hidden controlling magics within the rituals and procedures he had taught Celebrimbor. Without fully understanding the procedures he was following, he could quite easily have introduced these without ever being the wiser.

MadWannabe
Posts: 170

Assignment 12

Post#9 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Yikes! Yep, you are right I meant question 1... :P:
And about Valedhelgwath's point on that Celebrimbor not fully understanding what he was doing is an angle I have not realised before...but I would like to add a point that Sauron did not neccesarily need to conceal controling magics in it, but he may be able to fully utilise the ring weakness, as he was the technically the "creator" as they may use his techniques....like he is the main computer and the others are just extensions of it...and therefore needed much of Sauron's power in forging it.
And about question 2, my preliminary anaylsis of it could only come up with the fact that Sauron use his power much the same way as Morgoth...they attempt to corrupt using their power. As can be read, Sauron has the ring of power which all his power was in, while Morgoth had Middle-Earth which was his ring. Both rings in this corrupt all and make them well "fall-from-grace" in a manner of speaking. They both seek to control and corrupt as can be seen with Sauron with the elves and Morgoth with well....all races and even Maiar. That is all I can think of now. :)

Beleg_Strongbow
Posts: 147

Assignment 12

Post#10 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

One thing to think about--Sauron was second to Morgoth only in the fact that he served another. If Sauron had won the War of the Ring, would he have strived to bring back Morgoth? Or would he have just kept the ultimate power?

And as to question 5--I don't think a mortal could have wielded one of the elven rings without it having some sort of negative effect. Although Gandalf's ring gave men courage if I remember right (which I may not be, since my memory is the size of a goldfish :) ), I think the power and responsibility that came with it would be to much for a mere mortal.

Wasn't there something in the Fellowship (in the second chapter, I think) about mortals who wore the rings? Gandalf said if they used them enough they would disappear. Would that apply to the elven rings?

And one more thing--Annatar was very deceptive, and I don't think that any knew what he actually was. The ringwearers and the forgers didn't see anything wrong--it was Annatar, not Sauron the evil Maiar.nn[Edited on 22/5/2003 by Beleg_Strongbow]

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