Assignment 5

Faramir
Posts: 90

Assignment 5

Post#1 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

I have just started reading the Silmarillion and happen to be at this part and was wondering if it would be too late but first I have a question: Are Utumno and Angband the same?

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valedhelgwath
Posts: 4233

Assignment 5

Post#2 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Faramir, you are more than welcome to join us. I'll look forward to reading your opinions.
Are Utumno and Angband the same?
No... Utumno was Melkor's first dwelling in Middle Earth and he had Angband built as a defence in case the Valar assaulted Utumno from Valinor. His servant Sauron was given the task of defending Angband. During the War of Powers, when the Valar defeated and captured Melkor, both of these strongholds were destroyed, but the deepest dungeons of Angband were never discovered.

When Melkor returned to Middle Earth he returned to Angband, where a few of his Balrogs and other monsters still remained, and he raised the mountain of Thongorodrim above it. He never returned to Utumno. Both were utterly destroyed with the sinking of Beleriand at the end of the First Age.

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grondmaster
Posts: 25451

Assignment 5

Post#3 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Never too late if you have read the material. You might also want to read through the discussion on the other assignments, which will help solidify what you have already read. :happyelf:

Are Utumno and Angband the same?
No, Ultumno would have been farther east centered in longitude between the now existing Blue and Misty Mountains and north in latitude of the Grey Mounains; however, since the land was much changed at the time of Melkors's first defeat, this is mere speculation, except that the lights of that battle were seen in the north from Cuiviénen on the Inland Sea of Helcar by the first Elves, not in the west.

While Angband was located in the portion of the then existing Iron Mountains centered far north above Doriath, Dorthonion, and Ard-galen shown on most maps of Beleriand in the Silmarillion. Angband was submerged along with Beleriand when Melkor (now named Morgoth) was defeated the last and hopefully final time at the end of the First Age. :teacher:
'Share and enjoy'

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Elfstone
Posts: 1502

Assignment 5

Post#4 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Okay, time to tackle a couple of these questions before I blaze ahead, but first I have to say, Eol getting cast over the Caragdur was hardcore! Staying on the subject of Eol, I think he differed in appearance from other Elves of his race for several different reasons.
Number one, Eol was Teleri, but he was of the Teleri that never made the journey to Aman. The kin he was descended from never saw the light of the two trees, therefore making Eol one of the Moriquendi, and thus explaining one of the reasons for a slight difference in appearance from other Elves. More importantly however, is the fact that Eol dwelt in Nan Elmoth were the sun never came. He lived in deep shadow, in the twilight world, and he loved the night. All of which I think were contributing factors in his difference in appearance over time.

Also (briefly), Ulmo was different from the other Valar during this period because he was directly staying involved with the events of the Elves (specifically those of Noldorian descent) in Middle Earth. Where as the other Valar during this period had basically shut out the Noldor (part of the doom of Mandos), Ulmo was still directly offering help, wisdom, guidance, and protection to the Noldor (appearing to Turgon, the building of Gondolin, etc…).
:elf:
"I would have the Ring-bearer bring the crown to me, and let Mithrandir set it upon my head, if he will; for he has been the mover of all that has been accomplished, and this is his victory." Elessar

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Tinúviel
Posts: 510

Assignment 5

Post#5 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

I agree with what Elfstone said about Ulmo, also he tried to communicate with the race of men, though they did not understand him, whereas the other Valar had very little to do with men at all.

Of all the elves Eol seems to be the first 'bad' elf who was not corrupted by the lies of Melkor (as others before him) but more so by the darkness in his own heart. He was very much a loner and never really saw the sun; he even seemed to prefer the company of dwarves over elves.

3) Those Noldor not directly involved with the kin-slaying were still ashamed by it and heart-broken over being banished from Valinor, they would rather not think of it let alone speak of it to someone who may hold them in contempt or even partly responsible for the actions of the other Noldor. Especially since Thingol was Teleri as were the Elves who were slain. nn[Edited on 5/1/2003 by Arwen*Evenstar*]

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valedhelgwath
Posts: 4233

Assignment 5

Post#6 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Eol the Dark Elf. The name conjures something unique, like a different race of elf, but Eol was Teleri. Why does he appear so different to others of his race?
Staying on the subject of Eol, I think he differed in appearance from other Elves of his race for several different reasons.
This is why I raised this question. When you read the Silmarillion you are left with the impression that Eol differed in appearance from other elves. Many people that I have spoken to feel this way too, that Eol actually physically looked different. This was not the case at all. He was Moriquendi as you mentioned Elfstone, but prior to the rising of the Sun at the beginning of the First Age, he dwelt in Region with Thingol's people, and so was Sindar.

Feeling uncomfortable with Doriath after the Girdle of Melian was raised, he left Doriath to dwell in Nan Elmoth. Thingol gave him permission to do this in exchange for the sword Anglachel. Okay, he may have dwelt in shadows because he disliked the Sun, but the sun had only been in the sky for 304 years when he met Aredhel. Compared to the ages the elves had dwelt under the stars, this was only a short time.

In my opinion Arwen is correct about this, in that Eol's darkness was in his soul. I like the point you have made about him being the first elf to turn bad without being influenced by Melkor. I had not thought about it from that point of view before, but I cannot think of any other elf to have done so. That he had such a dark heart showed in his work too. Anglachel was a formidable weapon but it caused much grief to those who wielded it in the years to come.

How was Ulmo different to the other Valar during this period?

Yes, as you both pointed out, Ulmo was the only Valar to directly assist the Elves in Middle Earth during this period. While the other Valar barracaded themselves in Valinor, Ulmo often visited Middle Earth, often to the point of seldom going to the Councils of the Valar. He did try to communicate with Men also, but they lacked the skills necessary to understand his signs.

It should also be noted that because of this, Morgoth never assualted the Elves from the sea and his creatures greatly feared water. Even during Sauron's time, it was only the Numenorian's, or their descendants the Corsairs of Umbar, who dared to make war while on his domain.

Even those Noldor who had no dealings with the Kin-slaying were reluctant to speak of events in Valinor with Thingol. Why was this?

Your answer is pretty much correct, Arwen. Even though the people of Fingolfin and Finarfin had nothing to do with the kin-slaying directly, they were still Noldorian. To many, particularly Thingol, whose brother's people were the innocent victims of the Kin-slaying, the act would be seen as a Noldorian attack on the Teleri. The fact that Thingol was able to differentiate between the houses of the Noldor, and eventually forgive those not guilty of the act showed his own great wisdom.

Galadriel originally said to Melian that she did not wish to dwell on what had happened in Valinor lest it ruin what joy she had left. Galadriel knew the consequences of what would happen should the tale get out, and was being very evasive here.

Even though they had no part in the Kin-slaying, all of the Noldor were subject to the Doom of Mandos. They all felt guilty at disobeying the Valar and were ashamed to have done so. Only the house of Feanor was driven by the Oath that they had sworn, but that Oath affected all of the Noldor whether they liked it or not while they had any dealings with the Sons of Feanor.

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valedhelgwath
Posts: 4233

Assignment 5

Post#7 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

1) The Elves of Beleriand built their realms and set a tight siege against Angband. How united were they in this defence?

Would anyone like to briefly summarise the elven strengths and weaknesses at this time?

Does anyone have any other questions they would like answering about these three chapters?

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TomBombadillo
Posts: 2746

Assignment 5

Post#8 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Still with you, read these chapters. I especially liked "Of Maeglin". I'm beginning to enjoy the read! :D
Denial is not a river in Africa.

Samwisegamgee
Posts: 607

Assignment 5

Post#9 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

This part of the book is before Beren and Luithien and thus before the sons of Feanor truly pay consquence for their oath. Thus I think it was a time of relative peace between the Noldor. They could concentrate on overthrowing the enemy as a united force.
I like what you said about Eol Arwen. And Tommy, I'm glad you're enjoying the read. :D

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valedhelgwath
Posts: 4233

Assignment 5

Post#10 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

From Melkor's viewpoint, I think you are correct Samwise. The elven siege would have seemed pretty unified and complete.

In reality, however, this was not really the case. The sons of Feanor had little love for the houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin, and only showed cooperation because of the leadership of Maedhros. In addition, Thingol had little love for any of the Noldor unless they were of Finarfin's house.

Because of their differences there was a great danger of Melkor using his skills to create great rifts between the elves. He does not seemed to have exploited this weakness, however, either due to not recognising it, or the elves distrusting him far more than they did each other.

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