Elvish Baddies

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durin the deathless
Posts: 112

Elvish Baddies

Post#1 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:27 pm

The Elves were good beings, but they did some bad things. Gandalf once said, "The greatest evil can be done by the best intentions." That was the Elves' problem.

soora
Posts: 27

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Post#2 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:33 pm


Yes. I agree with your thought. Look for example at the elves taking pity on Gollum and he managed to escape them. Then again the other side of the coin, in the end his escape served a greater purpose - 'not even the wise can see all ends'



thranduil
Posts: 84

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Post#3 » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:44 am

The only bad the elves ever did was due to the Silmarils and the oath of Feanor as far as I can see, such as the kinslaying at Alqualonde. The pity they had for Gollum was good, in the end the ring would not have been destroyed without him,

durin the deathless
Posts: 112

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Post#4 » Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:13 pm


Both very good points. I value your input. And Soora i agree with the issue being double sided. im afraid i didn't explain myself however. i did not mean that the Elves were evil, I suppose i should have said they made mistakes that resulted in some rather large and deadly dillemas. For example, the Elven Rings of Power should never have been. Granted Sauron probably found another way to wage war on Middle-Earth, but if the Rings had never been forged, he would have been as Saruman, mortal and susceptible to be felled with mortal weapons. if you'll observe, Sauron poured much of his essence into the Ring and therefore ensured his own survival even though the Ring was taken from him. Had he not learned the Ring Lore and made his own Ring, he would never have actually survived the War of the Second Age. Isildur would have eventually defeated him.



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galin
Posts: 1369

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Post#5 » Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:42 pm


Sauron putting so much of his power into the One also created a situation in which he could be slain and not return, as well. If the Elven Rings had never been made, nor the One, Sauron's physical death would not hinder him from returning.



The Elves -- well, certain of the Noldor -- may have been cozened by Annatar in Eregion, but Sauron's trick largely failed concerning them, and he himself had introduced the means of his own, 'final' destruction, in an attempt to trick them further.



durin the deathless
Posts: 112

Elvish Baddies

Post#6 » Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:50 pm


yes but Sauron was mortal. He was always mortal and was susceptible to destruction by mortal means. Only age could not slay him, being one of the Maiar.



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galin
Posts: 1369

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Post#7 » Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:01 pm


Sauron's body could be destroyed ('mortal' in that sense), but his spirit could not leave the world, and he could rebuild a body. He didn't need the One to do this.



With the One Sauron had introduced the weakness of allowing someone else to claim it and usurp him (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature), or, that he could be reduced to 'vanishing point' as Tolkien puts it in letter 131.



durin the deathless
Posts: 112

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Post#8 » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:47 pm


i assume you are referring to the Letter of Tolkien? i unfortunately have not read those wonderful works and i must concede to your judgement. It would be foolish of me to continue to argue with one who obviously has more knowledge than I.



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galin
Posts: 1369

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Post#9 » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:14 pm


Yes it's a Tolkien letter, although all I meant was that Tolkien used the term 'vanishing point' there. But JRRT did write, in a text called Osanwe-centa, published in Vinyar Tengwar number 39...




'(...) So it was also with even some of his [Morgoth's] greatest servants, as in these later days we see: they became wedded to the forms of their evil deeds, and if these bodies were taken from them or destroyed, they were nullified, until they had rebuilt a semblance of their former habitations, with which they could continue the evil courses in which they had become fixed' (Pengolodh here evidently refers to Sauron in particular, from whose arising he fled at last from Middle-earth. But the first destruction of the bodily form of Sauron was recorded in the histories of the Elder Days, in the Lay of Leithian.)'



JRRT, Osanwe-centa, author's note 5




The parenthetical part is from the text. My only addition was the '[Morgoth's]' part to clarify who 'his' referred to.



durin the deathless
Posts: 112

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Post#10 » Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:13 pm


*bows low* Forgive me. I respectfully apologize for my erroneous presumptions. 



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